VF - Before you flame a warrior for wanting utlity...

[Pudsley]

This is to DK's and Paly's primarily (but by no way generalised, I like a lot of you and I'm sure you aren't all to blame), I know a few read this forum, I didn't wish to start a troll post on your respective forums so I'll slap it in here.

Recently spread around in game and out of game I see a lot of DK's and Paly's bashing warriors because we want some group utility, everyone seems all too quick to point out how basic the Warrior class should be and how we "want it all" I'd just like to point out the following.

If you want us to be the basic Warrior class with little to no utility then honestly you are shooting yourselves in the foot.

Why?

If you want us to be the basic lacking solo ability, lacking group utility Warrior we have always been in previous MMO's then we WILL go back to being the best tank, our mitigation and aggro WILL once again become unparralelled and you will all be extremely dissapointed when you are not the raid MT, to balance all defensive fighters means to destroy the old concept of a Warrior, so stop referring to it when it suits you.

Please bare this in mind when you next decide to bash a Warrior for wanting his group utility or solo capablility to improve.

By evening the playing field between Warriors, Paly's and DK's with regards to mitigation and aggro you destroy the old Warrior class, and in it's place you need to put something else.

[ellestil]

I may not be the most popular for saying this, but I really believe what we need is a system that works like this....

1. The basics are cookie cutter. Mitigation (and potential), Hp's (and potential), and Hate gain are the same across the board for any tank class. This is the basic job of the tank, so there shouldn't be any mystery magic numbers here. We all generate hate the same, take a hit the same, and grow in hp's the same. Cookie cutter? Yes. But if any class lacks in one or more of the foundation of tanking, while others do not, they will be lacking. So make all tanks the same at their foundations. You now have balance at the basic level to build on.

2. The fluff is where the variety is. Fluff is utility, buffs, debuffs, and etc. Basically anything that isn't part of the "foundation" of the tank job, but is an added perk. These can be spread out easily among the tank classes equally without causing imbalance, while still giving each class a different feel. Things like +accuracy, +crit, and +dps can be handed to each tank class as buffs. All are beneficial. All are useful. None are overpowering of the other to promote a "prefered" tank. Pal's heal. Let DK's restore mana, Let War's restore endurance. All perks, all useful, none overpowering as long as you keep them spread out. It's when one class get's too many of the useful fluff and others get too many of the minor fluff, that's when fluff can once again imbalance the classes. Equally divide useful, semi-useful, and minor fluff among the three classes to keep balance.

Of course this has been discussed ad nauseam for years so I'm not adding anything new. In other games imbalance was "fixed" by making warr's mitigate better, gain more hp's, and grab hate better. In other words, they excel at the basics of the tanking job. That's what led to them becoming the only desired tank after awhile. So I agree, if people want to avoid this scenario once again, then warr's need more utility to keep balance. If all tanks tank equally, then the next step is balanced fluff. If the foundation AND the fluff is balanced between the classes, then you have a solid class system where all tanks are needed and wanted, and players can enjoy both their primary jobs and utility while still feeling different from the other classes.

[Kend]

I peronally dont belive that it is a matter of "fluff" balance. The diferences in tanks choosing between one classs or the next is simply imo:

Warrior is the archtype foundation of a tank class.

Paladin sacrifices dmg output for heals.

Dread Knight sacrifices defense for dps.

Personally that the way i see the defensive fighter classes.

Kend

lvl 44 warrior - Thunderaxe

[Chagas]

Originally Posted by Kend

I peronally dont belive that it is a matter of "fluff" balance. The diferences in tanks choosing between one classs or the next is simply imo:

Warrior is the archtype foundation of a tank class.

Ok, if we are the "achetypical foundation" then please tell me, what one unique and effective thing do warriors bring to groups atm?

[Apsu]

Originally Posted by ellestil

2. Pal's heal. Let DK's restore mana, Let War's restore endurance.

The value of restoring endurance is not even close to the value of healing -- if this were to work, we'd have to be able to do something with that endurance that would equal the longevity self healing allows you -- like kill faster.

Of course this has been discussed ad nauseam for years so I'm not adding anything new. In other games imbalance was "fixed" by making warr's mitigate better, gain more hp's, and grab hate better. In other words, they excel at the basics of the tanking job. That's what led to them becoming the only desired tank after awhile.

What game was this in? The only other MMORPG I've played is EQ, and this was balanced throughout most of that game's life by the knight's ability to grab snap aggro which made him much more valuable as a grouping tank, to the point that for years it was nearly impossible to level up a warrior if you didn't have friends willing to carry you through content 1-65. Until content became balanced enough to put serious value into the knight's raid offtank roll, and the incite line helped the warrior become a viable group tank, the warrior had zero value as anything other than a raid tank. What game are you coming from?

[Adino]

First of all, I'll state it for the record: Warriors in VG get the shaft. I mean, really, I love playing warriors in MMOs, but the warriors in VG were so broken that I let my pally buddy be the tank and I played a cleric. I deleted the warrior but remade it after the 1818 patch to see if it was worth a damn after those overhauls. Warriors still need to be fixed. They don't solo well and they aren't even the best tanks. For those that don't get it, let me enlighten you, from a 44 Cleric's (And ex-warrior's) standpoint.

1. Paladins get +15% mitigation in their defensive stance.

2. DKs get +10% mitigation + up to 5% mitigation from Dreaful countenance.

3. Paladins get really good buffs to give themselves extra mitigation and HP, on top of the fact they can heal themselves fairly well with a 3 sec heal and lay on hands, an instant heal for a LOT of HP.

4. DKs can fear, invis, leech-life, teleport to the back of a mob, and get Bleak Foeman which gives them 100% chance to block the next incoming attack, on only a world cool-down timer mind you, with a linked attack for high-hate after each block.

So, I'm looking at the warriors in my groups and comparing them to my friend, the pally, and DKs I've partied with. Here's what I see:

1. Warriors get no Mitigation advantage. In fact, they're at a disadvantage. Not only do Pallys get +15% mitigation in defensive stance, they get a buff that adds somewhere near 1k AC at level 50. DKs get to add up to 5% mit from increasing their DC.

2. Warriors give no buffs. If I am in a party with a Paladin, I get really nice HP, AC, and Stats buffs and an awesome buff that reduces the melee hate generation of everyone in the party. Those are all 1 hour buffs, FYI.

Here are the only advantages to grouping with a warrior over a pally that I can see:

1. Warriors do more damage, more hate, and can generally hold mobs off casters better than Paladins can because their hate-reducing buff is melee only. ( This is the my only real, game-based reason for taking a warrior over a pally. My others are just generalizations that can easily be wrong in any given situation.)

2. Many high-level Warriors are planning on being Raid-tanks and their guild is supporting them, keeping in mind EQ and the preference of Warrior tanks there. Therefore, they tend to have really good crafted items and dungeon equipment. They also tend to be better players because it takes a skilled one to play and level a warrior effectively. They are also better at the group dynamic because they sure as hell didn't get to 50 already by soloing.

3. Most Pallys I see are Dwarves. That's fine, I guess: it's their money every month that pays for their account. Dwarves are almost ALWAYS harder to heal. If I didn't know the details, I could tell you that from personal experience. Most play dwarves for the huge Con bonus. Unfortunately, Con is the most cheated stat in VG. Wisdom adds 10 Mana per point to a mana pool. What does Con do for your HP pool? 3 HP per point of Con. If you are a Dwarf who gets 7 Con a level (Plus, the base +1 and class increases) and a Human puts 4 points of Con per level, You'll have 123 more Con at level 50, based on racial attribute points. If the Dwarves focus on +Con gear and get up to 300 more Con than their Human counterpart, they'll have 900 more HP at level 50. Maybe 900 hp seems like a lot to you, but It doesn't mean anything to an tank with a HP pool of 7k or more. I definately prefer mitigation and evasion over 900 hp when I'm healing. Also, take into account that if half your racial attribute points and most of your gear go into Con, you're not getting the hate generation from hitting harder, criting more often, and the greater effectiveness of taunts. (Which is based on Strength as of the 1818 patch, rather than Int.) Not to mention, those dwarves aren't evading attacks as often because their Dex and Str are so low that they aren't blocking or parrying many attacks. They're just lucky to get the racial +2% evasion bonus on top of what their shield gives. Essentially, a Dwarven Pally built like that is as much a mana sponge as a tank can be.


Of course, DKs, with their special abilities are much better suited to soloing. Being able to invis in and pick up quest items is really handy, not to mention that they can scout an area before they pull without having a mage-type in their group. In general, if you wanted to level solo or just have an alt tank, DKs would be more fun to play.

So, Warriors are the worst soloers and they aren't even the best tanks. Sigil needs to fix the class. Period.

Just my 2 cents, plus some extra. Keep the change...

[Venge]

Originally Posted by Adino

First of all, I'll state it for the record: Warriors in VG get the shaft. I mean, really, I love playing warriors in MMOs, but the warriors in VG were so broken that I let my pally buddy be the tank and I played a cleric. I deleted the warrior but remade it after the 1818 patch to see if it was worth a damn after those overhauls. Warriors still need to be fixed. They don't solo well and they aren't even the best tanks. For those that don't get it, let me enlighten you, from a 44 Cleric's (And ex-warrior's) standpoint.

1. Paladins get +15% mitigation in their defensive stance.

2. DKs get +10% mitigation + up to 5% mitigation from Dreaful countenance.

3. Paladins get really good buffs to give themselves extra mitigation and HP, on top of the fact they can heal themselves fairly well with a 3 sec heal and lay on hands, an instant heal for a LOT of HP.

4. DKs can fear, invis, leech-life, teleport to the back of a mob, and get Bleak Foeman which gives them 100% chance to block the next incoming attack, on only a world cool-down timer mind you, with a linked attack for high-hate after each block.

So, I'm looking at the warriors in my groups and comparing them to my friend, the pally, and DKs I've partied with. Here's what I see:

1. Warriors get no Mitigation advantage. In fact, they're at a disadvantage. Not only do Pallys get +15% mitigation in defensive stance, they get a buff that adds somewhere near 1k AC at level 50. DKs get to add up to 5% mit from increasing their DC.

2. Warriors give no buffs. If I am in a party with a Paladin, I get really nice HP, AC, and Stats buffs and an awesome buff that reduces the melee hate generation of everyone in the party. Those are all 1 hour buffs, FYI.

Here are the only advantages to grouping with a warrior over a pally that I can see:

1. Warriors do more damage, more hate, and can generally hold mobs off casters better than Paladins can because their hate-reducing buff is melee only. ( This is the my only real, game-based reason for taking a warrior over a pally. My others are just generalizations that can easily be wrong in any given situation.)

2. Many high-level Warriors are planning on being Raid-tanks and their guild is supporting them, keeping in mind EQ and the preference of Warrior tanks there. Therefore, they tend to have really good crafted items and dungeon equipment. They also tend to be better players because it takes a skilled one to play and level a warrior effectively. They are also better at the group dynamic because they sure as hell didn't get to 50 already by soloing.

3. Most Pallys I see are Dwarves. That's fine, I guess: it's their money every month that pays for their account. Dwarves are almost ALWAYS harder to heal. If I didn't know the details, I could tell you that from personal experience. Most play dwarves for the huge Con bonus. Unfortunately, Con is the most cheated stat in VG. Wisdom adds 10 Mana per point to a mana pool. What does Con do for your HP pool? 3 HP per point of Con. If you are a Dwarf who gets 7 Con a level (Plus, the base +1 and class increases) and a Human puts 4 points of Con per level, You'll have 123 more Con at level 50, based on racial attribute points. If the Dwarves focus on +Con gear and get up to 300 more Con than their Human counterpart, they'll have 900 more HP at level 50. Maybe 900 hp seems like a lot to you, but It doesn't mean anything to an tank with a HP pool of 7k or more. I definately prefer mitigation and evasion over 900 hp when I'm healing. Also, take into account that if half your racial attribute points and most of your gear go into Con, you're not getting the hate generation from hitting harder, criting more often, and the greater effectiveness of taunts. (Which is based on Strength as of the 1818 patch, rather than Int.) Not to mention, those dwarves aren't evading attacks as often because their Dex and Str are so low that they aren't blocking or parrying many attacks. They're just lucky to get the racial +2% evasion bonus on top of what their shield gives. Essentially, a Dwarven Pally built like that is as much a mana sponge as a tank can be.


Of course, DKs, with their special abilities are much better suited to soloing. Being able to invis in and pick up quest items is really handy, not to mention that they can scout an area before they pull without having a mage-type in their group. In general, if you wanted to level solo or just have an alt tank, DKs would be more fun to play.

So, Warriors are the worst soloers and they aren't even the best tanks. Sigil needs to fix the class. Period.

Just my 2 cents, plus some extra. Keep the change...

I usually don't respodn to these kind of posts but here it is. I am sorry sir but you are incorrect on so many levels I do not even know where to start. What level did you go up to? How did you play? Any case. I'll shed some light on what happens to the warrior, as a warrior.

1. Warriors get +15% mitigation in their defensive stance, same as the Paladin.

2. Warriors can self-buff their mitigation by +20% for 30 seconds on a 30 second recast timer. Paladins can LoH at the cost of VP. Paladins recieve HP buffs all well and easy, however when it comes down to it, they are supposed to do so.

3. Each protective fighter recieves a block ability line which lowers hate from each block.

4. Warriors do have a mitigation advantage because we can buff mitigation the highest at any given time. Did you level up your warrior to recieve the defensive stance?

5. Warriors recieve buffs however they are on short durations but they are sanctioned around dps.

Battle Frenzy/Veteran's Furor - +20% Melee Accuracy/Melee Haste
Shout of Fury - +100 STR for 12s.
Form the Line II - +25% Mitigation for the group for 8 seconds.
Charge II - +25% Damage for the group for 8 seconds.
Just listing the groups. Paladins are supposed to help defend the group. Therefore that's what they do.

I'm keeping it short. I'm tired.

[Chagas]

Originally Posted by Venge

Battle Frenzy/Veteran's Furor - +20% Melee Accuracy/Melee Haste
Shout of Fury - +100 STR for 12s.
Form the Line II - +25% Mitigation for the group for 8 seconds.
Charge II - +25% Damage for the group for 8 seconds.

Do you actually consider 8-12 sec "buffs" comparable to what the other classes have? I have a problem even considering them to be buffs. Hell, an ill-timed lag spike can wipe them, or even a stun.

Personally, I don't think that anything that only lasts that long can be considered "utility" or a reason to choose a warrior.
<insert inappropriate wife/girlfriend joke here - (oh c'mon ya'll were thinkin' it too.>

[Venge]

They aren't long in duration. But put it like this, warriors weren't supposed to have buffs period. Making that we do, they are intented to be short. Buffs are supposed to be very limited for us. We depend on the group for that. For that we bring is tanking. It is a double-edge blade here. Its the same issue for both paladins/warriors. Warriors want more group utility and paladins want more mitigation/avoidance. However they excel in their current fields right now.

[velzevul]

Venge is 100% correct in his posts regarding warrior vision. Warriors received a lot of needed attention from Sigil lately, and grouping with a level 48-49 warrior friend of mine, yes, his buffs are short. but they are god damn great.

Wars got no dps?
- I call whomever says that bullshit. How do you like dps jump of 20% for 6 people for some seconds? Is it short? A mob dies in that time, how much longer does it need to be?

Wars got no utility?
- refer to previous question, wars got more grp utility than in any mmorpg and them all put together.
- the commands wars use in VG basically define how the group performs to almost a level of me putting people on ignore and never grouping with them if they do not know how to use their commands or finishers
- how you like -20% mob mitigation? disarm? -X% mob's damage? -100 flat off of mob's damage?

there is a shitload of things that a skilled warrior brings to the group, courtesy of Venge's efforts to make a warrior class fun to play.

I am not saying war is completed as a class, but I am definitely saying these things:
1) wars are in much much better position now than when the game started
2) wars take a lot of situation skill to play and debuffing they can do on a mob to define how encounter goes for the group
3) wars got dps and utility. and a skilled warrior has so much versatile, although short term group level utility that it is bordering ugly.

I am happy for warrior class to be where they are, and if you are bashing wars for not being useful... l2p.