Death Mechanic Changes – Feedback Thread

[Ginfress]

Originally Posted by Farseeker

People in this thread answer what they want to see, not what the game needs. I really hope Sigil doesn't base their decision on some player posts that are not in the interest of the game but in their own interest or preference.

1) How can you deceide what a game needs and when not? Are you Brad in disguise? Are you a well known mmorpg leader who exactly know what's good for vanguard? Or are you just thinking that your opinion only is the right choice for the vanguard devs to go?

2) If people loose their interst they move on. Is that what you are suggesting? Let all the so called hardcore people loose their interest and leave to replace them with people who like to play the game like you do?

[Sarrene]

I am another that has created an account just to respond. I may as well give fair warning now. This will be long, and my spelling is atrocious. I have not yet had my first cup of coffee.
I have been on the test server and will do so more in the future. Players testing and giving feed back is the best way to get our voice heard.

I have to say I am not happy with this at all. This is not a good change in my opinion and realy realy realy hope it does not go live. Did I mention "realy" yet?

Hardcore vs Casual

Also for the one that is complaining and being totaly negitive, I also am a casual gamer. I have a family, kids and work that I do. My husband works about 45-60 hours a week. Netiher of us are hard core raiders nor any other form of hard core.

Our guild is not hard core. In fact its a very relaxed casual guild. A guilkd of people that work, that are in the military, that have families and go to college. No one has had anything good to say about this, and hope it does not go live. None of us are what you would call hard core.

I also do not see this being an issue on these boards or anywhere else stating they are hard core. In fact most (not all) of the responces I have seen on several boards are all casual players.

Myself, I 99% of the time solo or duo. I am not a raider, I am not a hard core player. I do however like the system the way it is. When I die, and I do a lot of that even on my level 24, I get my corps 99% of the time. When I know its too difficult, I do use the alters. There have been a few times I have died from me being stupid and exploring some of the great areas in the game and find myself in over my head. Do I go in and die several times knowing its too difficult? Nope, I summon and move on. However, On that note, there have been only a hand full of times I have NOT been able to get my corpse. Other then going into a dungeon i should not have, or falling off a clift into some mean minotaurs (sp). I have been able to get my body and gear back if I am outside. /tombstone is your friend when its being camped. Yes, I have had that happen to me.

Topic at hand

I think the system is good just the way it is. When they added in the alters in beta, I tried them out. I loved them, it was a nice choice for when things get rough, or you know you cannot go back to get your gear. I do not think this is turning into a wow clone, however I do see the simularities to what DAoC has become.

The experience is the same as is you summon your corpse from what I hear. Okay, understandable. And you gain that back if you retrieve your essence. Okay, I understand that also. However, the change I see here, is that it is going to bring about a whole new issue.

Suiciding
People "ciding" out. Suicide runs are something very very common in DAoC. Most people do this to leave a group, or to go back to town to sell, or to just leave the area to find somewhere else. Yes there is exp loss, however there is no item loss, no reasion to go back to your tombstone. At one time, DAoC had a reasion to go back. Gain back that exp. However, it became apparent fairly fast that one did not have to. Kill some mobs, do a quest and you have your exp back. No real risk there. I see the same thing happening here.

Current bugs and petitions
I have to agree, if people are loosing out on items (I do not know one person that has lost items from corpse, but I am sure it happens) then this is an internal matter that needs to be looked at. There must be some scripts that are conflicting with another. Perhaps some items do not have the porper tags, or there is a tag missing in the script that causes these said items to get lost upon corpse retrieval. What ever the reasion, this aught to be looked at and fixed, not finding a new way around. As another poster said, this will only bring about new bugs to figure out and fix. Bugs are common anytime you introduce new scripts. Not everything is forseeable, and only live play will bring them out. However, why change something that I see across all the boards that 99% of the poeple do not want changed? I would think this, froma developing standpoint, would only cause more work in the end.

Petitions
It was stated that beause of the current bugs was one of the reasions that you were changing the system. What about finding a way to handle the corpse item loss/fears/lack of knowledge another way. Pehaps a seperate ticket that it prioritized in a different fasion so those with "legitimate" petitions can still be addressed, and the frivilous ones such as "I dont want to loose exp summoning" tickets can be set aside for when ever someone has time?

Time sinks
I can see these going out the window with the corpse runs. This was one issue you as a developer team wanted to have. Something to keep people in the game for a long time, to keep them playing and keep the adventure going. If you take out the current system, I see the issue listed above (suicide runs/deaths) becoming more popular. If someone finds they are in an area too difficult, they can cide out and find another place. The exp gain is faster as it is set now, to "cide" out and hunt else where. Faster then it is to run back to recover your essence.

Grouping issues
It was also stated by the developing team, and requested by the majority of players, to have a better system to find groups. Be it for a quest, to just grind to that next level or to do a full group plus raid. If you are making it easer, with out the risk or fun of getting your items back (or summon at an alter) Then groups will be more difficult to find and aquire.

Why would this cause grouping to be more difficult? Because, there will not be a need nor fear of lost items. Some players are going to find they can solo a lot easer then it already is. Those players that are difficult to group with in pug's (pick up groups) will leave more readily with out a word and not worry about their gear. This has only happened to me once, however, I have heard and seen this happen to many people. Not just in this game already, but in others as well. I am lucky in a lot of ways, but not everyone is. I also do not mind solo play. I usualy solo unless someone needs help and asks to join me. Be it from the guild or just some random person in the area.

Group wipes will become more frequent as the risk involved will not be there. And people leaving a group (again either because they wiped/died or because they decided to cide out) will become more prevelent.

The above statements I have made are only predictions and my own thoughts of course. However I have seen this happen in many games. DAoC being one of them. That is a game that has turned into a solo/buff bot game with the only goal is for RvR. The rvr is good, however, in the changes they had made, no one wanted to group, do raids or quest. In the end, DAoC now has eliminated the need to group at all other then getting power leveld. You can now purchess in game your Master level raids, your Artifact gear, your books and scrolls. The community has changed a LOT since it was first releaced. The game itself has changed from a small sandbox (choice of what you wanted to do) into nothing more then a PvP game on all the servers. RvR is the goal now, nothing more. No more raids, no more quest groups, and very very little role play on the rp servers. I can see something simular happening here in time if this is implemented.

Two Boxing
This is something that was brought up to me by a few people in and out of my guild. With this change, it will encurage people to two box more often then it will encurage them to group. Two boxing (or bot account as its refered to in DAoC) is not a bad thing in its own right. However, as it has been seen in many games from SWG to DAoC, it does limit the grouping capability. It will cause more of a trend then what I believe you might like.

In the future, and in the past

Once you make this change on the live servers, there will be no going back. Remember when you first added in the alters and summoning your corps? the out cry it caused amoung the real hardcore people? Okay, that was rought, for sure. And did cause a lot of debates. Now remember when you took the ability to summon back out again? The outcry was even more so. Not from one set of people, but from all. There was no way to reverse that desission with out loosing a lot of credibility.

If you do something like this, changing the corpse/tombstone to the essence runs you propose in this patch, there will be no going back. What is going to prevent more issues from popping up, and having to simplify something else because of those? Then there shall be more, and once again, another change will have to be applied. This is a dangerous change to not just the players enjoyment, but to the fundimental of the game itself. Eventualy, if this dangerous path is taken (with this curent issue or others in the future) then there will be no turning back, and eventualy Vanguard will not be the vision it was ment to be.

Challenge and outcry
Challenge verces rewards is one thing. And yes, it is a lot of fun for most people. However, one has to realise that a majority of time, that the loudest people that cry about things such as "I dont want to loose the exp from summoning my corpse" Are the ones that are heard the most. It does not mean it is the majority. I am saddened that some of you may have heard these outcrys and have actualy seen a need to address that as a potential issue.

As you can see here, and I did check those pcharacter profiles I was able to on the vgplayers, the ones that are now giving this outcry are not just kids, are not just people that have tons of free time, but players that span across the board in play styles and play avalibility. I realy hope that you will take a look at this and see that this is something that we are fairly unified in. With exception to one that has complained about everything from day one. I do see that a few are open to the idea, and they have spoken their reasions in a nice and polite manor.
Remember, the squeeky wheel get the oil. Let us hope this time, it will be benificial for the majority of players.

These are only my own thoughts and observations from many years of playing games. It is also what I have observed in Vanuard as well. Things are difficult enough, and it is fun at the same time. Yet there are some issues that aught to be looked at instead of making this change in my opinion.

1. Creating a more unified way to find groups
2. Creating insentive to group more often and stick with it.- Exp gain, loot options etc.
3. Fixing any current bugs involved in corpse retrieval/item loss
4. and many more I cannot think of at this time.

These things listed above will make more people happier then changing the type of death penelty.

Just my 2¢ worth, I know its long, however, I pray the developing team does take a look at some of what i said, as well as listen to what others have to say. I may not be right or correct, since these are my interpetatinos of what I have seen in games in the past, and what I see happening now in Vanguard.

In closing
Do not get me wrong.. I love this game a lot! I have been a supporter of vanugard and the developing team in thick and thin. I have posted my thoughts on bugs myself or others have experienced, but stayed happy and have realy enjoyed the game a lot. I want to continue to enjoy the game. The different feel it has from other games, the simularities it has with others. The old home feelling that is present now, I hope stays. Please do not change the current death system. Just fix the issues that are present it in.

Peace,
Sarrene'

[Ginfress]

Well writen response Sarrene. I hope the devs will read this one!

[Ardenya]

Originally Posted by Elrar

Hey folks,

I cannot stress this enough that this is not a complete and final mechanic. This is here on test to be tested for what it is.

It is likely that these mechanics will be changed and/or modified.

I have to admit that I havent read the whole thread yet as I felt the urge to comment, I'll do that when I have a little more time at hands.

First off, as I saw this news over at TTH I was greatly disappointed. As many other have already stated I dont count myself to be hardcore in any way but I fully adore leaving a corpse/tombstone with my gear on it. I really like the thrill of the need of having a backup plan ready in case that things go wrong and you end up standing naked in fron of a dungeon with your stuff deep inside. Yes, one could summon the corpse from an altair or such but to me that is not nearly as fun as going in with a set of backup gear, invising behing enemy lines, hoping that invis sticks long enough and nothing sees me before I can get to my corpse. Call me oldschool and whatnot but I prefer leaving a corpse over some kind of shard in the world.

I understand that this might not be going down the sink completly as players would still have to get their shards for the experience so I guess its all about the amount of the exp lost. If said amount is too small then there is simply no actual need to ever getting back to where you died - which I believe to be the case eventually because the exp lost on death is going to be reduced.

I really hope that this is only a small step oin the way to the greater good. I remember not too long ago - roughly 6 months - when Brad posted a long and very interesting article about his views on different VG mechanics, including death penalty. It was a very exciting read. Basically he "promised" a meaningful death but in different levels based on the mob con/dot system. If you were to die to a low con mob you wouldnt leave a corpse but respawn with your gear on. If you were to die to a medium risk con mob you would leave a corpse and if the challenge rating were somewhat higher some items may still have to be recovered from the stone. Then when you died against really hard mobs like raid encounters the death penalty would really hit with corpses and exp losses.

What happened to that system? Is it still in the works? Is the new change only a small part of a greater plan to achieve this or is this system trashed? Honestly, I really like VG as it is now and heck, most likely I will adapt to any system that may be implemented in the end but I just would like to know if there is anything for that matter for me to look forward to.

Originally Posted by Sarrene

Sarrenes War and Peace.

Peace,
Sarrene'

Very well written, I fully concur with what she said above...

[Razalei]

I registered to post my views on this change. By the time I finished and got back to here Sarrene had posted.

She stated all perfectly.

[Eloy]

We got the reasons why they consider changing it:

1. They have bugs with the current system
2. Players are "confused" and using petitions

If you have bugs + confused players, you are not able to tell if something is a bug or just user failure.

If you can't have a stable system you can't enforce that the players "using" it. It does not even matter what the system consists of.

Let's say it clearly: They want change it because the current bugs are overhelming support.

I wonder if the people who implemented some of the software are still around. To me it looks very much like getting the "complicated" stuff out in the hope to fix some bugs in the software nobody understands anymore. (Btw... I am software developer for 15 years).

Just count the posts by "Farseeker" and you know why you can't avoid the change!

It is not enough for them to "say" once what they think. They want to change the world to their believes... in MMO you can! They can!

Look at an US Fastfood Coffee-Cup ... "you may hurt yourself drinking hot coffee" ... doh!

The others have to live with that. Thats not cool... but probably it is the only way to get stuff "in order". But I doubt that this will be the case.

Many People have just to few knowlege about the game mechanics. I frequently find people asking questing which are explained by the text boxes. Even MOTD is not read... and so on. Consider what they do on /petition?

I wished that would change.. but it never will!

I would remove "/petition" on the live server... let people ask other people for help.

Make "/bug" only available to selected people. Maybe call them "Live Guards" and list them in /who as "special" people.

Even when the bugs are fixed you get the "My Items are stolen" message from Chars... you look at lvl and see 7 .. AH

I experienced a lot of players to not even know what classes may res you (can't shaman res? ... question of a lvl 20).

Solo players... stand beside you and let you die... They even won't res you until asked.

So... do I like the change? HELL NO!

Do I think it is needed to change? Yes .. if above said is true!

But I tell you something... you destroy "your" vision... and drive a lot of people away..

I was starting to feel home... and know I think about other options already. I even think about stop playing such games. It is always the same... the stuff gets easy to please the masses. I guess that is unavoidable...

About "why do you ask if you change it anyway" ... well at least they asked ... feel guilty SIGIL!

- Eloy (aka Hans)

[Razalei]

Originally Posted by Farseeker

OMFG, I hate the

"I NEED TO BE PUNISHED WHEN I MESSED UP SOMETHING SO I WON'T DO IT AGAIN"

crowd.

Are you that dumb that you need someone punishing you with an xp hit every time you mess up something?

So you just want to be able to run anywhere you want without any consequences? Wow, just wow.

[Farseeker]

Originally Posted by Razalei

So you just want to be able to run anywhere you want without any consequences? Wow, just wow.

Would be great to see other places without being scared to go in red xp for some, maybe VG would have some people left then.

[Vis]

Originally Posted by Ginfress

Can you only make insults towards people or can you normally communicate too?

Insults only.

I find it hilarious you guys wanted your own server to 'test' things. But now, you want to do nothing of the sort and you want to tell them how to design the game.

FWIW death penalties were way too hard. Its been steadily nerfed in the last month anyway. More so than this patches proposition, but you guys probably werent high enough level to notice anyway.

[Sarrene]

Originally Posted by Eloy

We got the reasons why they consider changing it:

1. They have bugs with the current system
2. Players are "confused" and using petitions

If you have bugs + confused players, you are not able to tell if something is a bug or just user failure.
...<snip>...

- Eloy (aka Hans)

I understand about the scripts, but you have to admit it is not too difficult to reverse engenier the scripts either. It is the same with any program. The thing is, the programs/platforms used for vanguard are fairly common, even though they are modified version.

The base language is the same, the base commands for the scripts stay the same. At least it does for C++, the Unreal engine, Dymanic Lighting and most of your Physics software.

I do not think it is a case of the developer being gone. Not to mention it would be a team, even if a small one that wouldbe working on an aspect like this. Not just one or two people. Those additional team members would need to have knowledge of the scripts and commands used. So, even if they did loose their lead designer in this area, there would be others that could fill in and take up that spot, knowing the software and scripts that were used.

I do not think this is a viable reasion or explination. Of course, I could be wrong also. That is very possible. Perhaps it is a way to find an easer and faster route around the problem?

Peace,
Sarrene'