Death Mechanic Changes – Feedback Thread

[Zarbula]

Hello fellas. It seems popular to voice your thoughts on this change on the Death Mechanic, and personally I am not a fan, I didn't get to play around with it much, however I felt it cheapen things. However, this seems to be a trend with all MMOs, even Everquest 1 when they brought in the Guild Lobby created a way to get your corpse back pretty quickly, removing the needs for Necromancers for those really big crappy monuments (Plane of Fear comes to mind...).

So, personally I really like the current system in Vanguard, I still get a way to get my corpse back by losing XP if sometime crappy happens, like being in a bad group and everyone gets too frustrated to get there corpses back... its happen once or twice.

So, I think it would be better to correct bugs in the current system, and just keep it as it is.

Oh, if I remember right, When Everquest 2 dropped its corpse system, because it went live they said they were just testing.. then like 1 week later it went live. I was sad when they changed it.

[aishti]

I am not in favor of this (hopefully proposed) change.

The closer VG approaches EQ2 the more likely I am to press the "cancel account" button.

Cheers

[Solstice79]

I registered just for this topic myself.
I personlay don't like the idea. I am a pretty casual player, I have kids and often die while afk, but the corpse runs are fun to me. It takes some skill to get a corpse while your naked. It takes some forthought to put gear in your saddle bags for just the occasion. While I can understand having CS issue with the current form, making a change because of that seems pretty weak to me, and I am sure any sytem you try to implement will have plenty of CS issues too. Of course all the bugs going on right now ahve to be CS nightmares themselves.
I really thought the current death system was fine, even if it was a bit easier than I like.
I don't think it is really going to matter how many people say they don't like the change chances are they are going to be implemented anyways. Which I can appreciate the whole "stick too your guns" mentality, the problem with that though is the change itself goes against these very same "guns" that they are suposedly sticking too.
While I am not going to be liek " I'm leaving" I am a bit worried that this is a trend. Lets hope for the best : )

[ander]

Originally Posted by Hasium

Lot's of good feedback in here, thanks everybody.

Many things to answer, hopefully I won't forget anything. It also doesn't help that english was my worst subject and I read too darn slow. It also explains any rambling as you read ahead.

AS Denidil mentioned, it is more of a matter of players understanding how all the mechanics work than a bug issue. Clearly we need to fix all the bugs. Thankfully, most if not all the bad corpse bugs are fixed. But we cant just tell players to figure it out or go somewhere else. If a significant portion of the players are having issues (and many are), then it's our duty to look into it and see if there is a better way to do while still retaining the original vision. Part of that is Sigil doing a better job of presenting that information to the players as well.

Bugs

Also, we have 70+ people on the Dev team, not everyone can work on fixing bugs. So please don't think that because we are looking at the death penalty that bugs aren't being worked on. The majority of the team are working on bugs. And no we are not changing systems because we cant fix our bugs with the first system. Lol. I wonder if that would work? :P

CS issues
CS was just one of the issues, not the only issue.

Soulbinding,
Yes, with items being left on your corpse there isn't much of a reason for soulbinding your gear. That's why it's only on test and not live. As many of you have pointed out, even one change can affect the game in many ways good and bad. That's why there is a test server and why we need players on it playing.

We did try the multiple different ways to die depending on the dot system in beta. It was a nightmare. Way too complicated and most people didn't get it.

also in progress but not all listed on the "in the works page" in addition to bug fixing... (two of which Calren mentioned)
- Better LFG functionality and making easier to get to people so you can find / get into groups.
- Rested EXP system

The wife is waiting for me to watch a movie , I will check back in a couple of hours. I'm pretty sure I forgot something.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

Please remember, alot of Vanguard subscribers have been playing MMO's since UO, AC1 or EQ1 and while you may please the players who do not understand CR's, you will certainly displease your "core player base"

I was scared when you mentioned corpse run, I m even more scared now that you mentioned Rested EXP system.

I get the strong feeling, that once again, my guild will end up quiting this game because the developers are dumbing down the game and not addressing the PVP issues.

In fact, I get the feeling that in 6 months Tharridon will be dead because the developers are trying to capture the average Joe instead of focusing on its core player base.

I love this game, but changing things like the death penalty is a deal breaker, heck most of us are waiting for item drops on PVP deaths on the PVP server !!!

[Lothan]

Death Mechanic? Please do not mess with what is live now. Please.

[Nightmare]

Please don't let this change to go on live servers. In the current system, its player's choice whether he leaves his armor/weapons on corpse or not. We can easily soulbind all important items so that the corpse recovery is not a problem, moreover if we soulbind our equipment we can wait a few days before recovering a corpse.
Also the current system makes a lot of items disappear from the economy because players soulbind them. If someone decides to use a piece of equipment and sell it afterwards its only HIS choice. It is a player's decision to make the game more difficult for him.
I undestand there are many players that don't know they can buy a stack of soulbinding crystals for no-price but don't change the system that works very well.
If you are looking for a solution give all players an ability to soulbind 1 item per hour for free.

[Artagus]

"Oh Death where is thy Sting"

Okay thats out of the way.

There will be testing, tweaking, and modifying so assuming what the end result will be is taxing on the brain. Reading the posts we are told there are issues, I have to trust the Devs that there are enough serious issues to even look into this type of change.

I guess I fall into the “Hurt me Mr Death” crowd. If the decision was mine there would be a significant xp loss, corpse retrieval and item decay. Death has to mean something for me. Knowing the penalty for a dungeon crawl or taking on “King Kong” makes the victory that much more rewarding.

If the only thing I have to run back for is a small amount of xp, trying to take down “King Kong” is a nightly stroll. The Mighty Kong turns into Chucky the Chimp. This doesn't make the encounter easier, it just means more when there is a risk involved.

Don't beat me up, it's just what I like. I want to genuinely feel the fear of adventure. Maybe caution is a better word. I still trust in those that are taking the time to contribute on the Test Server as well as our Dev team. I see tweaking, testing and modifying in the future. Yes old Art is a “Vanboi”.

If Items on a corpse are part of the issue at hand, maybe a stiffer xp loss for our “Ghost” runs are in order. Give me a solid reason to play “Ghost” tag. Help me keep my fear of Death (such as it is at this point).

Test away.

[Tallenn]

There are bugs in the current system. The correct thing to do is not to change the system, but to simply fix the bugs.

Some people don't understand how the system works. The correct thing to do is not to change the system, but to simply educate the players. Really, the current system is pretty darn simple already. If some people are having trouble understanding how it works, what makes you think these geniuses will be able to get your new system?

The death penalty system is perfect just as it is now.

I liked the death penalty system in EQ, but it had one problem. If you died close to the time when you had to log off, you were either forced to stay on to CR, or try to get it done the next day- without the support of the group you were in the night before. I always thought they should add the ability to summon your corpse (and make it non-rezable) at a significant cost (so that it was a last resort type solution) to address that problem. In fact, when they added the corpse summoners in the guild hall with I think the DoN expansion, they basically did just that. EQ now has a near perfect death penalty system.

Vanguard's is even better. Leave it the way it is.

[Odball-1]

Originally Posted by Artagus

"Oh Death where is thy Sting"

Okay thats out of the way.

There will be testing, tweaking, and modifying so assuming what the end result will be is taxing on the brain. Reading the posts we are told there are issues, I have to trust the Devs that there are enough serious issues to even look into this type of change.

I guess I fall into the “Hurt me Mr Death” crowd. If the decision was mine there would be a significant xp loss, corpse retrieval and item decay. Death has to mean something for me. Knowing the penalty for a dungeon crawl or taking on “King Kong” makes the victory that much more rewarding.

If the only thing I have to run back for is a small amount of xp, trying to take down “King Kong” is a nightly stroll. The Mighty Kong turns into Chucky the Chimp. This doesn't make the encounter easier, it just means more when there is a risk involved.

Don't beat me up, it's just what I like. I want to genuinely feel the fear of adventure. Maybe caution is a better word. I still trust in those that are taking the time to contribute on the Test Server as well as our Dev team. I see tweaking, testing and modifying in the future. Yes old Art is a “Vanboi”.

If Items on a corpse are part of the issue at hand, maybe a stiffer xp loss for our “Ghost” runs are in order. Give me a solid reason to play “Ghost” tag. Help me keep my fear of Death (such as it is at this point).

Test away.

Exactly, but loss of exp at 50 is totally diferent from loss at 20, and as most have pointed out a 50 will have no real reason to want to get their ess back.

We have no "real" 50's on test yet, just got into the 30's myself, and I can tell you as a sorc, I can easily get my ess back anywhere but hte most heavily populated see invis mob areas. I will always try to get my exp back, but at 50 when it becomes not so much a problem since there is no need of exp, I will be less inclined to go back for a small pittance, and even if the ess were to hold say the current amount needed to level, plus half, meaning a full exp bar of red, plus another half a bar... after 70 hours either its is returned or goes poof, not sure which...

So, that means at 50 I can just go about my buissness and continue to kill mobs, and eventually I will get my exp back, and I'm not touched by death in any real way....

Lets look at what EQ2 did in the ways of death.... Item Decay on death... I hate it in any form, but if your gonna have a sting in death for a 50 plus player it's gonna be a hit to the armor. Either removing it, or crippling it.

Removal has been deemed a CS nightmare, and so we re left with crippling it, but then you can go to any merchant that offers it and have your armor repaired for a fee, thus countering the ess.

Heres a compromise... Remove usage based ID from items, replace it with death based ID on the actual equipment slots, or a debuff that does that.

When you die you take a % hit to the ID,(or are given a debuff) and the only way to fix it is to recover your Ess. Each Ess remembers how much it took from your gear, and is dynamic in it's % hit. So, a 2 dot will take 20 %, while a 6 dot will take 60 %. The Ess will hold the % for say 100 played hours, but the exp for only 75 played hours.

Now I said equipment slot for a reason. You will always have those that will carry 1 or 2 pieces of armor or a whole arsenal of weapons, and at higher levels it's gonna be allot easier to do so, so no matter what they use in those slots it's all gonna take a hit when equipped, but unequipped they will be pristine.

What happens when the equipped slots equal 0% debuff ? They give mundane effectiveness.


I'd rather see the current form fixed, as well as ID removed, but death has to hurt everyone equally, or it's not gonna be fair across the board.

[Lochar]

First off , I dont play on test so my opinion is purely that.

Second my playtime is about 4hrs a day playing so guess would be considered casual.

I have had no problem with current system aside from the fact due to dying while CTD during autorun and being stuck taking hit for it if I have to use altar. Its not fun taking an item hit on top of losing exp for the night.

Also I believe alot of confusion comes from the bad tutorial lessons this game offers. Too many people come into the game and because the UI looks like a standard MMO they figure they know what their doing and disable them.

Make the first 2 levels a instance that explains all the important mechanics and then lob the poor noob into the world.

Saddlebags will be just another concept that turned into another bag with shards, and what else will lead down this road?

Half of this game is done by word of mouth and documentation stinks. It doesnt surprise me people are confused, hell had a guildies exclaim he didnt even know after 12 lvls he could claim corpse at altar. Thats poor implementation and seeing a small stone in the middle of the huge altars isnt something that catches the eye.

Fix the bugs, give the gms better tools, revamp the introduction part, but dont start reducing the game more, it seems so many ideas are already on plan B or lower stages, soon its going to be just another mmo in a flooded market.