Death Mechanic Changes – Feedback Thread

[Tarjan]

Thanks for your answer and of course your time reading through this thread, Hasium!

Originally Posted by Hasium

CS issues
CS was just one of the issues, not the only issue.

What are the other issues if I may ask ?
If one of the issues are the players that do not understand the game mechanics then the easiest way would be to add one of thoes nifty popups you used to get at lower levels that explains you the way the game is supposed to be working.
A hint in the manual would be a good thing also, for those that are too lazy to surf the websites or do not know about the websites.

EDIT: I have to admit I am not one of those RTFM guys, so I didn't know that there IS a hint about dying in the manual already. This really must be an april fool's joke!

We did try the multiple different ways to die depending on the dot system in beta. It was a nightmare. Way too complicated and most people didn't get it.

Was it too complicated to be implemented or was it too complicated to explain players why the death affect them in a different way with different mobs ?
I suppose it is not too complicated to be implemented, since there are records already which mob has slain you.

Just to point it out: The worst thing that happens on a death is not the XP loss, it is the gear loss. So if you tell me that you are going to change the death mechanics that way that death is feared more it does not make sense to have the PCs pop fully equipped.

If I lose XP I just go kill some mobs again, so what ?
But if i lose my gear I would do anything to get my corpse back.

PS: After reading all the DEV posts again I am also going to believe that this is nothing more than an april fool's joke.

[Shinto]

Ok, I admit, I got tired of reading around page 6. I just want to make my opinion known. Sorry if some of this is already here.

First, I think the death system as it is works fine. I played as a solo character and have done groups in this game, and I have died in both. I made the choice to either manually recover the corpse or recall it. Having to do so does not seam unreasonable to me. That said, I don't mind so much if you want to make it a shard instead of a corpse. That just means that I chase them more often instead of calling back my equipment. Don't make the penalty less, though.

While the death mechanic itself doesn't really bother me that much, this does raise one concern in my mind. Or, rather, it makes once concern much, much more important: There is no reason to soulbind items.

Why does this matter? Because soulbound items cannot be used by other players. Therefore, soulbinding artificially decreases the number of items on the market, keeping prices stable. With even less reason to soulbind, people will re-sell all of their items, eventually flooding the market. This is significant for all players, but especially for crafters. How can I justify making an item when there are already several of that exact item on the market? Eventually, even flawless items will become too common to bother producing. As it is, I can barely sell superior iron weapons at all.

The point of saying that is, we need an item sink. Crafters are constantly increasing the number of goods available, but the amount of material is relatively constant. Combine that with our already sub-standard damage for rare weapons, and our items are (not will, but are) quickly becoming worthless. With this latest change, we can expect the number of items on the market to increase at an accelerating pace, which will quickly ruin the ability of any but the highest-level crafters to sell items.



By the way, why don't I have a manual?

[asteldian]

Exactly what part of the corpse run is confusing people? The fact they have their gear left on body? The fact they lose xp by taking the easy way out and summoning? The fact that soulbound items stay on them? You die, get your body back is hardly the most complicated mechanic in the world, hell even without the tooltip, the manual, or looking thigs up its pretty darn easy to work out....and if you are stumped-just ask the community!

I've still not seen any vaguely convincing reason for such a change to the game, especially with so many clearly against it. So between it being unpopular and there being no decent reason for it, I'm seriously hoping this is not implemented in game. You realise if it is you risk getting your next nightmare of a flood of petitions complaining about such a silly change - seeing as there is not an official forum people won't have an easy place to go and complain and be sure a dev will read, so flooding the GMs with their complaints is likely what will happen

To sort out the CS issue you just need to communicate better to explain very slowly, very simple words, to allow people not understanding the death mechanic to understand it. You also need to fix the remaining bugs when you can and bingo, its all sorted. I refuse to believe a mechanic not all that different from one in a 7 year old game can be too much for you to sort out, given the huge number of bugs you've worked hard to remove since beta 0

[Sarrene]

Good morning everyone.

Dear Hasium and Elrar,
I know you had listed that there are other issues then just CS nightmares right now involving players being confused. Yet, perhaps we can take it one step at a time? As Asteldian stated, and many others have asked since, I think starting here would be a good beginning.

So I gathered the questions that I have, my guild mates all have, and the many that have posted here and other forums. I am not sure if this will help, but perhaps it can elevate some of the stress, frustrations and confusion that both sides are experiencing at this time. (I am sure you, the Sigil staff are getting frustrated as well at our incestuous prattling)

Perhaps we can have a short post listing what the confusion problems are that some (or a lot) of players are having. So some basic questions to start out with, then we can move on to what some of he other issues the Sigil, CS and GM's are having problems with.
So to help us, the player base understand more here are some basic and direct questions.

1) What is the largest complaint you are receiving, regarding death?
... a) What is the second and third most complaint?

2) In what area(s) are people getting confused about dieing and corpse retrieval?
... a) are they related to corpse runs? (and what percentage of complaints?)
... b) are they related to experience loss? (and what percentage of complaints?)
... c) are they related to mulitple tombstones?

3) What are the specific issues CS is having in dealing with players complaints related to the above issues?

4) What is the (average) % of unique accounts that are having difficulty? (Or are there repeated petitions from same accounts?)

5) What are the other non-CS issues that the current death system has at this time?

While I am aware that you are unable to give specifics in regards to actual accounts, I am sure that an estimated or average number of problems/issues could be stated.

Perhaps answer to some of these can either lead to other discussions where the player base and customer service can either meet in the middle or perhaps (wild stretch I know) find alternate actions different then changing the game basics and "feel" of the game.

At the very least, Perhaps being able to answer these specific questions that many of us have, shall help us understand the reasons behind this test run, and be able to accept it with out further complaint. (including others that have not posted here or on other forums- in game, on voice chat programs, and even at home) Of course there will always be those that complain no matter what. Yet, at least most of, whether we like it or not, shall have a better understanding.

Remember, its the game mechanics that makes each mmoRPG different from another. I think that many here and on other forums wish to keep the unique feel to Vanguard and keep it going strong in the future.

Peace,
Sarrene'

[Florinda]

PLEASE TELL US YOU KNOW TEST HAS BEEN DOWN FOR OVER 24 HOURS!

PLEASE TELL US YOU'RE WORKING ON IT!

We can't test anything, much less the new death mechanic, if we're stuck at character select!

[Ialiliel]

Here just for you is the high point just for all you posters ... the death mechanic has not been really tested since it was implemented the server has died without a word from the devs not one post regarding this problem (which has been going on for the last 3 days before the server finally died) the amusing thing to me is they can post here and explain (if not poorly) their decission to try a new mechanic yet there is not even a server to try it on at this time if it is finally fixed (which no one knows because this thread is sooooo much more important to quell) we will probably be able to give people a better idea of what this mechanic involves and if we really are overstating our fears.

Ialiliet/frerra

Test server

[Astery]

i think the best would be to remove death penalty entirely on new CAREBEAR servers. The existing serves should not change death penalty rules.

Also offer free moving for people who like this change.

i dont.

[sokol]

I too like these changes. Frankly a game can be fun without over burdening penalties for death. I'm a casual gamer I get maybe 1 hr a day play time, and do not like having to use half of that to earn back the xp that was lost due to things beyond my control. But this being said you can not please every one in a MMO. Frankly I trust Sigil. I hope they don't listen to closely to all the forums. Truly they can get out of hand and a game can go under trying to appease every one. So I say stick to your guns and vision, and give me a good game to play =)

~Sokol

[coercion]

Originally Posted by Azathul

You do realize that you're playing games with words here, right? Rather than providing an honest, open answer to the question at hand you're making inferential statements that allow people to draw the wrong conclusions to calm them, now, but give you the opening later to claim that you were always as clear as you could be and were just misunderstood? It's a common practice in business and politics, I grant, but I still find it to be sad and disingenuous. And I tend to hope for better from someone who is trying to convince me to give them money out of my pocket.

Your first statement leaves the hope and even the fairly strong suggestion that maybe the mechanic won't go in without committing to it. Your second gives the implication that they are a fait accompli and only bugs will be fixed, but again in a way you can back away from if you wish. Thankfully, Hasium posted as well and chose to use language with actual content.




Reading these threads must be nice, then, as it is pretty clear that there are many other people who enjoy the existence of corpse runs and feel that death should have a sting. I don't agree, though, that it is cluttered and confusing. There are not all that many details to have to keep track of in the current death mechanic. Not so much that anyone over the age of twelve should have a problem at least.



The problem I am having is that I disagree that this is 'one small tweak'. It is a change to a fundamental concept of the game and how it was always presented. It's also a change that has rather significant repercussions to the item system and threatens to bring about 'bind on equip' which is a mechanic I despise enough not to participate in. Your suggestion implies also that the integrity of the game design is of secondary concern to the volume of a particular, and at this time unquantified, segment of your players. I am not going to say that you are 'WoWifying' the game, but I will say that you are selling out key concepts in how the game has been pitched throughout development. Concepts that were used to attract a fanbase to virally market your game, one that was doubtless pointed to at various points when the game needed to acquire more venture capital, and one who seems to be getting the response of 'you've served your purpose now please fade away quietly' as things they were told about the game to raise their interest are steadily removed.

See, that's what I am seeing from Sigil that is causing my concerns. It is not an attitude that I feel any need to support and if it continues, I will have to remove that support entirely.

Well said, sir.

Oh, and personally speaking, this is probably going to be the straw the breaks the camel's back. If this goes live, my motivation to play is going to plummet; the last of my optimism for Vanguard's future will evaporate, and I'll end up finding another unreleased game to follow for 3+ years in hopes that it lives up to at least some of its potential.

[Corlin]

WARNING: ACTUAL FEEDBACK ON NEW MECHANIC

I did get to try the new mechanic Friday night on testserver (as others have stated the server has been unavailable all weekend).

Pulled a pile of mobs (oopsie), died, released. My tomb was labelled an "essence" and after I consented others in my group were able to drag it. I already had my items, and received a rez which restored most of the exps lost. My essence (still looks like a tombstone) was not draggable or lootable by me (even after I logged to desktop) and would just yield an "invalid corpse" error message. Others could drag it all about. I did not try dieing and running to the essence to see how to get exps back that way (I assume you can loot it once?). Will have to test that whenever the server is available again.

It would probably be better to just have the tombs poof (insta-rot) upon rez or runback/loot, since they no longer serve a purpose. 72 hour rot timer is good too, but no reason to litter the landscape if the essences have been "consumed".