Death Mechanic Changes – Feedback Thread

[Blackspider]

I still can't figure out why our subscription dollars cant pay for one lousy Official game forum to post feedback to rather than being bounced all over kingdom come hoping a dev might stop in.
I don't mind the current system. I really couldn't care less about a death penalty change. I don't find that I die often enough to care. I play the game to have fun. Swearing about a diferent bug repeatedly every time I sit down to play is starting to be "unfun". Rather than make a change to reduce custumer service corpse issues, why not fix the lousy bugs we have been reporting throughout the entire beta? Wouldn't that free up your gms AND make your game more enjoyable?
I don't see the pressing need to make this change. So I ask myself what would be the outcomes of this change? What ultimately are they looking to accomplish? Make the game more like wow? That would seem detrimental. Of course wow has seen alot of subscription dollars over the years. I swear we were told early that vg had a target audience and not mass dollar subscription goal. Easyness must have little to do with it. This eliminates binding equip and removes one of the all so precious item sinks from game. could this have an impact on the economy? To correct this will the next step be to cave and make all items bind on equip? That was one of the top reasons we left wow.
As we were told in beta, we aren't game devs so who are we to know what is best. The sooner they get the changes in and the game where they really want it the better. Either we will be certain we are in the right game, or we can cut our losses and get out before wasting any more time and cash.

[Eloy]

If this is the official thread to discuss the new death mechanic ... and it is ... read the OP...

... We welcome you to discuss your feedback, experiences, and concerns in this thread ...

Well... I think you got enough answers... I wonder what will happen now?

Where is Mr. McQuaid by the way?

Wonder what he has to say to the people here... really wonder!

- Eloy (aka Hans)

[Odball-1]

I want to test this new mechanic,

FIX THE SERVER SO I CAN !!!

Please.

A bit overboard yes, but I've always been a bit committed, multiple institutes even. Never could figure why they keep letting me out....

[Aredhel]

Not necessary! This isn't a shouting match.

**Thank you, Od!

[Hasium]

Lot's of good feedback in here, thanks everybody.

Many things to answer, hopefully I won't forget anything. It also doesn't help that english was my worst subject and I read too darn slow. It also explains any rambling as you read ahead.

AS Denidil mentioned, it is more of a matter of players understanding how all the mechanics work than a bug issue. Clearly we need to fix all the bugs. Thankfully, most if not all the bad corpse bugs are fixed. But we cant just tell players to figure it out or go somewhere else. If a significant portion of the players are having issues (and many are), then it's our duty to look into it and see if there is a better way to do while still retaining the original vision. Part of that is Sigil doing a better job of presenting that information to the players as well.

Bugs

Also, we have 70+ people on the Dev team, not everyone can work on fixing bugs. So please don't think that because we are looking at the death penalty that bugs aren't being worked on. The majority of the team are working on bugs. And no we are not changing systems because we cant fix our bugs with the first system. Lol. I wonder if that would work? :P

CS issues
CS was just one of the issues, not the only issue.

Soulbinding,
Yes, with items being left on your corpse there isn't much of a reason for soulbinding your gear. That's why it's only on test and not live. As many of you have pointed out, even one change can affect the game in many ways good and bad. That's why there is a test server and why we need players on it playing.

We did try the multiple different ways to die depending on the dot system in beta. It was a nightmare. Way too complicated and most people didn't get it.

also in progress but not all listed on the "in the works page" in addition to bug fixing... (two of which Calren mentioned)
- Better LFG functionality and making easier to get to people so you can find / get into groups.
- Rested EXP system

The wife is waiting for me to watch a movie , I will check back in a couple of hours. I'm pretty sure I forgot something.

[Isobel]

Originally Posted by Hasium

Lot's of good feedback in here, thanks everybody.

Many things to answer, hopefully I won't forget anything. It also doesn't help that english was my worst subject and I read too darn slow. It also explains any rambling as you read ahead.

AS Denidil mentioned, it is more of a matter of players understanding how all the mechanics work than a bug issue. Clearly we need to fix all the bugs. Thankfully, most if not all the bad corpse bugs are fixed. But we cant just tell players to figure it out or go somewhere else. If a significant portion of the players are having issues (and many are), then it's our duty to look into it and see if there is a better way to do while still retaining the original vision. Part of that is Sigil doing a better job of presenting that information to the players as well.

Bugs

Also, we have 70+ people on the Dev team, not everyone can work on fixing bugs. So please don't think that because we are looking at the death penalty that bugs aren't being worked on. The majority of the team are working on bugs. And no we are not changing systems because we cant fix our bugs with the first system. Lol. I wonder if that would work? :P

CS issues
CS was just one of the issues, not the only issue.

Actually, it's your duty to educate the players who can't figured out how the big, sparkly pillar they pop up at when they die works. Perhaps, i don't know, a game wide mailing, as it seems the giant po-up message that tells you in detail what to do when you die isn't sufficient. The fact that players don't know how to use the giant rock behind them isn't a reason to alter the whole system.

Also, fixing the bugs, as opposed to altering the system in a way that will fix the whole "tombstone lost on death" issue is a better choice than altering the whole system to trivialize death. If their tombstone is lost, turning the tombstone into an essence isn't going to bring it back.

Originally Posted by Hasium

Soulbinding,
Yes, with items being left on your corpse there isn't much of a reason for soulbinding your gear. That's why it's only on test and not live. As many of you have pointed out, even one change can affect the game in many ways good and bad. That's why there is a test server and why we need players on it playing.

We did try the multiple different ways to die depending on the dot system in beta. It was a nightmare. Way too complicated and most people didn't get it.

also in progress but not all listed on the "in the works page" in addition to bug fixing... (two of which Calren mentioned)
- Better LFG functionality and making easier to get to people so you can find / get into groups.
- Rested EXP system

The wife is waiting for me to watch a movie , I will check back in a couple of hours. I'm pretty sure I forgot something.

None of which explains why, along with changing the system, the decision was made to lower the amount of XP lost on death. If players are having trouble gaining the information they require to play the game effectively perhaps this is a communication problem, rather than a game mechanic problem. As such, perhaps something like a central location wherein players can get and give information would be the best choice as a solution rather than trivializing death in the game. You guys could maybe call it "Vanguard Official Forums".
ON A TOTALLY DIFFERENT NOTE, are Fellowships in the works? We've heard nothing about this for far too long.

[Greydog]

Originally Posted by Hasium

AS Denidil mentioned, it is more of a matter of players understanding how all the mechanics work than a bug issue. Clearly we need to fix all the bugs. Thankfully, most if not all the bad corpse bugs are fixed. (good to hear) But we cant just tell players to figure it out or go somewhere else. If a significant portion of the players are having issues (and many are), then it's our duty to look into it and see if there is a better way to do while still retaining the original vision. Part of that is Sigil doing a better job of presenting that information to the players as well.

Better documentation sounds like a good remedy here. I realise that the game is still basically in development because of the early release, but a living document, not unlike a FAQ, that is accessable in game could go a long way toward helping people find their answers without the need for a petition. SWG does this in that it makes you look up your question in order to even find the link to CS, but thier system is clunky and confusing IMO. The best use of this I have seen is in Civilization II. They used an icon that brought up the "Civlopedia" where discriptions of all the functions could be found. It was (obviously) a stand alone game so it never needed to be updated while the same feature in this game would need to be ...often.

Maybe a combination of an "Encyclopedia Telonia" a FAQ and finally a link to CS would fit the bill.

Originally Posted by Hasium

Soulbinding,
Yes, with items being left on your corpse there isn't much of a reason for soulbinding your gear. That's why it's only on test and not live. As many of you have pointed out, even one change can affect the game in many ways good and bad. That's why there is a test server and why we need players on it playing.

Make it easier to switch back and forth between test and live and I would more often.

Also, no one who doesn't plan on making TS thier main server wants to grind up a character just to test different stuff. Niether do they want to have to do a half hour ride to get there. Developing some mechanic to make these two areas easier would also entice more folks to pop over and try things out for you.

[Wizhood]

Farseeker, You are getting bent way out of shape, what most of us are saying is that death should be meaningfull there should be corpses, it should not be super easy to get them back.
Here is what i propose to Sigil,

A- Leave system as is, Death Penalty + Items left of tombstones.
B - Add Gems that can be bought off of general merchents, 3 stages of them. Effect Summon Corpse With 30%xp 50%xp and 90%xp but of course make them cost more for the amount of xp returned. This would eliminate the need to use shards.
C- If the main problem is CSR being tied up with getting corpses, its mostly because corpses are being lost in the world, the same issues are going to happen with esseences. How do you fix this? Add the summon corpse ability at a cost, give necros, and dreadknights the abilites (with coffens like eq1 type stuff) but also add it to the alters. Give Healers Different types of rezes 25,50,75,95% rezes.
D- How to keep items from being lost, that is a coding issue on your side that needs to be fixed. Please dont take the easy way out and try to do somthing stupid there is many ways to give everyone what they want.

What do we want, Solo players - Abilty to get corpses back with more xp when summoned. (ADD more solo quests and mobs for them)
Hardcore, Give us the chance to try to get corpses back normaly, if that does not work we will summon and take the loss, it was our own fault for trying to bite off more then we could handle.

Add a few abilites to help people recover corpses with less penalty but not without a cost, repair damage, cost of summon gem, but add more reward for solo quests coin wise to help cover that loss. Maybe add a bonus to solo xp, But dont change the death mechanics, there is other options.

Solo - Hardcore, Balance is the key here. Fix solo, make hardcore harder, do some patching on loseing items and getting corpse recovery information to people.

And if people are leaving the game its not because its to hard, its because its still in beta, the bugs, and the lack of completed content is sad. there is no raid content, no real stuff to do at 45+ so people get bored and leave, add some epic quests, maybe one kind for each contient, I personaly dont want to leave my contient, i want it to be its own world, so when i play and alt on another land, its new and keeps the game fresh.

[Penth]

I still don't understand.

The death mechanic is explained clearly on page 41 of the game manual. Tombstones, ressurection, altar summoning, binding your gear, it's all there in print with every copy of the game.

Why change a fundamental aspect of the game because people aren't bothering to read the game manual? Because I honestly can't believe that anyone who takes the time to read how the game functions wouldn't manage to figure it out. And if they don't bother to take the time to read how the game functions - why does that constitute a reason for game changing action on the part of the game designers?

It's a never ending cycle - if people aren't bothering to try and find the information they already have on this topic, why would it change when the system changes? All that does is create even more confusion.

[Isobel]

Originally Posted by Wizhood

Farseeker, You are getting bent way out of shape, what most of us are saying is that death should be meaningfull there should be corpses, it should not be super easy to get them back.
Here is what i propose to Sigil,

A- Leave system as is, Death Penalty + Items left of tombstones.
B - Add Gems that can be bought off of general merchents, 3 stages of them. Effect Summon Corpse With 30%xp 50%xp and 90%xp but of course make them cost more for the amount of xp returned. This would eliminate the need to use shards.
C- If the main problem is CSR being tied up with getting corpses, its mostly because corpses are being lost in the world, the same issues are going to happen with esseences. How do you fix this? Add the summon corpse ability at a cost, give necros, and dreadknights the abilites (with coffens like eq1 type stuff) but also add it to the alters. Give Healers Different types of rezes 25,50,75,95% rezes.
D- How to keep items from being lost, that is a coding issue on your side that needs to be fixed. Please dont take the easy way out and try to do somthing stupid there is many ways to give everyone what they want.

What do we want, Solo players - Abilty to get corpses back with more xp when summoned. (ADD more solo quests and mobs for them)
Hardcore, Give us the chance to try to get corpses back normaly, if that does not work we will summon and take the loss, it was our own fault for trying to bite off more then we could handle.

Add a few abilites to help people recover corpses with less penalty but not without a cost, repair damage, cost of summon gem, but add more reward for solo quests coin wise to help cover that loss. Maybe add a bonus to solo xp, But dont change the death mechanics, there is other options.

Solo - Hardcore, Balance is the key here. Fix solo, make hardcore harder, do some patching on loseing items and getting corpse recovery information to people.

And if people are leaving the game its not because its to hard, its because its still in beta, the bugs, and the lack of completed content is sad. there is no raid content, no real stuff to do at 45+ so people get bored and leave, add some epic quests, maybe one kind for each contient, I personaly dont want to leave my contient, i want it to be its own world, so when i play and alt on another land, its new and keeps the game fresh.

90% rez seems to much in my opinion and many people who solo like the game hard and want the death penalty to stay as it is since it isn't broken. Not all or, i specualte, even most solo players want more XP on summon. The best way to resolve the "new death mechanic debate" is to leave death the way it is, fix the CS issues on the CS side, and make it more clear what to do upon death.