Death Mechanic Changes – Feedback Thread

[Hatto]

I do not like this change as it makes death more easy to deal with thus having some impact on the way groups play. I do see an impact on economy aswell, as there is no more point to soulbind gear, which will boost the second hand market in terms of flooding it.

As a not so serious feedback, that changes to the death system are made at all made me press the Cancel button of my Subscription today. The direction this is going is not mine. Still, the time left will allow to see how this works out.

[Kethra]

A few posters are taking things way too far in this thread. Warnings have been issued. If you cannot keep it civil, we will be forced to take steps to see that this thread remains a DISCUSSION and not a flame and insult fest.

Please don't make us intervene.

[ander]

IMO, the penalty is fine as it is for PVE.
The penalty for PVP on the other hand, needs to be spiked big time.

When the game was announced, the death penalty for PVP seemed fine because there weren't alot of bindstones. But now, the death penalty is a joke to most people.

For PVP death, I would like one or more of the following:
- XP lost
- Temp Stats lost
- loot drops

Death needs to mean something or there is no challenge nor incentive.


Ander, The Ancient Order, Tharridon

[vizigoth]

Please dont take away the Fear of death, Pretty please!

[weberran]

Originally Posted by Florinda

And it certainly defeated the purpose of the thread.

Elrar wants feedback from the Test community on how this is working. Bugs, how it's working, how we're experiencing it.

What we're getting instead is a huge argument, with name calling, mud-slinging, and general kerfluffle, by people from Live with post counts lower than 10. Pretty useless to the current purpose.

(And before someone points at it and tries to discredit me, don't let my low post count fool you. I'm co-leader of one of the largest, if not the largest, guilds on Test.)

Let us just get to the business of testing, eh? Don't get your knickers in a twist over a change that may not even make it off Test. Sheesh.

Well said Florinda. It seems to me that as has been stated they are testing the waters on potential changes to a system. Elrar has asked for the TEST community to do what we do TEST it. IF you do not want to play on test to give these things the workover, then please have enough restraint and patience to allow those of us who do play on test to do what we do.

We are all more than capable of dieing on test to check this out and give feedback. If you play on test and listen to the test channel you hear something truly amazing..... the TEST community is exactly that a community. We dont yell and scream at each other whine or cry etc etc we test and we play and we have fun. When a dev asks for something to be tested there are more people willing to go and test it than you can shake a stick at.

We enjoy playing on test and many of the folks there are great at finding and reporting bugs, and helping make this a better game. So to all you folks you registered on this board just to yell and scream and trash others, the devs the system etc. please go back to live and let us do what we do test. If you seriously have issues or problems with this roll a character on test and come be part of the solution instead of adding to the problem.

The bottom line it seems to me is the only real difference is you run back to recover an essence instead of a tombstone but you dont have to go back naked. The death sting is still there if you dont get your essence you lose all that exp. Whether you make the run with or without gear is really the major difference. Personally i would rather do with my gear thanks. Also to carry around a second set of gear just in case of a CR really doesnt make sense to me.

So I challenge you all to either show your maturity, restraint and faith in the devs and let them work, or come to test and roll a char and help test the stuff. Please let them do what is best for the game as a whole.

regards

[Sarrene]

Rithrin, While I understand what you are saying, I both agree and disagree with it. You may not have understood what I said or perhaps why. Yet no where did I hinge my entire arguement upon one or two aspects of my post.

My posts are a collection of observations from this and many other games. It was a collection of thoughts from previous experiences, and it was a collection of what I have seen and think. Some of them based on what I have seen/experienced and some of them my own opinions. I have not hinged my arguement on any one or even three points. Again, It was a collection of thoughts and opinions. I brought together under one or two posts a few things:

1) Observations
2) Experiences
3) Personal opinions
4) Word of others observations, experiences and their personal opinons.

My points about item loss were about the bugs that some people are getting hit with. It was not about the machanics or scripts that are current at this time. I also listed the hows that people are loosing items. The risk is not great, I agree.. I think its about right. It is a healthy ballence for most play styles. It is also something that aught to be worked on. The item loss bug that is. Not changed to another system that will, as in all aspects of game design has.

Every game is hit with this. Bugs that are unexpected. Even in single player games. They have patches for games such as Oblivion, Morrowind, Unreal, Doom3 and more. This happens across the board. It is how a company and developing team deals with these unsepected, unforseen bugs is what realy matters. This applies to single and multi player games of any genre.

To Recap

Item Loss

Right now, the only way someone will loose items is if they either 1) Choose not to retrieve their tombstone, or 2) They get hit with this item loss bug. What I was saying is that if they focus on the current bugs that are causing this, there is no reasion to loose items. The problem would be fixed.

Where did I sate that we can loose items in the game, wtih exclusion of this bug?

There is another way that one can loose items, of course it means not doing a run or summoning them. Even if you have all your current gear soulbound, you would still loose the items you have in your bags. Minus what ever may be in your saddlebags. If you do summon them, there is a coin cost to it. Not everyone has everything soulbound. I do not, most of my items are not soul bound. Just enough to get me where i need to go incase I do die. And befor anyone says anything, no it has never caused a problem in group. I can still attack from a distance with my bow, and have a blade and couple of my armors bound.

As far as risk vs reward, there is still a cost, a risk if you will, in the current system. It is not item loss (excpt for those that may have been hit with the mentioned bug) but coin and experience cost. In the proposed trial, and on the test, this is not present. Even if you do not go back for your essence.. or are unable to find/target it or regain yur "essence" back, the loss is not as great.

If you summon your tombstone, you take a durrability hit on your gear. This costs you coin. Granted it is not a lot, but it is still something. And for those that are not rich, it could begin to add up. The higher level you are, the more the repairs will cost. I just tested this out on my level 8 and my level 24 on the live server. 9 copper total on my level 8 and 2.7 silver on my level 24. I can imagin what it could add up to at both higher levels and with multiple deaths.

Grouping Related Issues

For grouping, no, it realy is not that bad right now. I did not say it was very bad or impossible. Yet, there are those that are having problems findind them none the less. Be it they are on a low pop server, or the wrong class, or just no one on at that time to play with. There are many reasions I am sure, that these people are having problems with. I am, as I stated befor, mostly a solo person, unless someone needs help or asks to join me. I never turn them down, but untill then, I am solo.

I have had people mention to me several times they had tried to find a group and were unable to. Both on forums and in game when I respond to someones shout for help. If they make solo'ing any easer, it can end up hurting the basics of the game.

Suiciding to excape:
In reguards to the "ciding out" this would become more prevelent then what it is now. Since the loss will be very minimum. Less debt then we have at this time. It is not noticable as much, if at all at lower levels, but once you hit your early 20's you can start to see the coin cost as well some more experience loss.

Granted this is not a lot, it is not huge, nor it is realy hurtfull.. unless you die a dozen times in a row fro being silly or stupid. I have done both many times on the love servers.. usualy for fun and laughed about it. I love to explore.. sometimes in places I aught not be in at that time hehe. But the fact remains, the potential for abuse and how it can change the game effect is still present. And once more, you have to relate the current system of the durrability loss and the cost it can add up to. That is not in the current system on the test server.

Change and illusion

At times only an illusion can create something unforseen. This includes the grouping issue. Instead of making it more "solo friendly", I stated they could be working on ways to reward groups more efficiantly. I am mostly a solo player, as I have said many times. I am also a Ranger. I have found no difficulty in solo'ing anywhere in the game so far. Yet, this is an MMO, therefor there are players that want to find groups.

Something you are forgetting here, one step is missing now. There is no summoning of the corps. Its retrieve your essence, or leave it. You do not summon your essence, and loose exp, you do not have even the illusion of choice on the test server.

The "feel" of the game world and gameplay can be changed by just something as simple as how corpses are delt with, with one change of the basic machanics. The results may be the same, however the feel of it, the style and the game play would be different.

I have played many games in my years, some I have loved some I have hated. One I just loved untill it had changed from a sandbox to nothing more then an over glorfied Casters PvP.

Extream example:

Looking at that last game I briefly mentioned, they had almost the same system that is on the test server right now. It got so bad after a time that no one ever went back to their tombstone to pray. Why? Becuse it did not matter one bit. That little bit of exp was no real loss at any level. Granted at one time it did make a differnce, but as the game got easer and easer, it became more solo friendly to the point they ended up dropping all raid and group content. All items and Artifacts and Raid credits can now be payed for with out ever stepping foot in a group other then to be pl'ed.

Will this happen in vanguard? I dont think it will get nearly that bad. And yes, that was an extream situation. However, on the test server it feels more like that game now, then Vanguard does on the Live servers.

fundamental simularities and differences

Are the two options (live and test) simular? yes, they are, very much so. However, there is enough difference to make them unique and have people want to keep the current system. And yes, I am one of those people. They are simular, but current offers choice! This one we currently have, gives that freedom of choice, no matter your play style. Even if it is just an illusion of it, this alone can change the experience of the game, the feel if you will.

I can once more apply this very aspect of the issue in another extream example. I could say all mmo's are fundamentally the same. And they are if you get down to the nitty gritty basics. All mmoRPG's have some sort of class system. Where you choose what class or skills you want. All of them have deaths all of them have magic and melee abilities, all of them have grouping and solo capabilities. However what makes each one different is the feel of the game. It is how they implement the feel to make one different from another.

Why do you think so many people whom are new to the game, or have only played a few mmorpg's see such simularities between Vanguard and their previous or current mmorpg? So many will say it is just like WoW, or just like EQ or even some, like DAoC. I have seen others whom have only played FFX see the simularities there. However! That is where it ends. What makes each game different is how these aspects of a generic mmorpg are applied. In this case and on this subject, it is about how death will be handled. Change that, you risk changing the feel of the game.

Peace,
Sarrene'

[Elrar]

Originally Posted by Ginfress

My question is this: Do i read it wrong when after this change you can't summon back your essence and therefor have two choices?

1) get back essence for xp
2) let essence rot away and continue playing?

Because as i read it you can't summon your essence at an altar.

You read it right

[Florinda]

Elrar, you guys know we can't log in, right? Is Test server dead or something?

Because *cough* we can't test anything if we can't get past character select.... *scuffs dirt*

[RedRider]

Originally Posted by Ginfress

My question is this: Do i read it wrong when after this change you can't summon back your essence and therefor have two choices?

1) get back essence for xp
2) let essence rot away and continue playing?

Because as i read it you can't summon your essence at an altar.

Same choices as you have now. There is no point in summonning the Essence since there are no items on it, so you get a XP hit just like if you summonned your corpse in the present system. Or you go and get your XP by retrieving your essence, the only difference are that no items are involved and they stay with you no mater what your choice.

[Nocte]

Originally Posted by Florinda

And it certainly defeated the purpose of the thread.

Elrar wants feedback from the Test community on how this is working. Bugs, how it's working, how we're experiencing it.

What we're getting instead is a huge argument, with name calling, mud-slinging, and general kerfluffle, by people from Live with post counts lower than 10. Pretty useless to the current purpose.

(And before someone points at it and tries to discredit me, don't let my low post count fool you. I'm co-leader of one of the largest, if not the largest, guilds on Test.)

Let us just get to the business of testing, eh? Don't get your knickers in a twist over a change that may not even make it off Test. Sheesh.

With all due respect Florinda, I'm permanently on test now. Largely in part because what HAS been pushed live. The current track record speaks volumes. And unless this is some cruel April Fools hoax, I'm very concerned as its contradictory to why a lot of people signed on to SGO and Vanguard years ago.