Death Mechanic Changes – Feedback Thread

[Odball-1]

I don't care for the idea of keeping my things on death.

I will test,(no real choice) but if I may, keep this new feature out of the next update to live til we've had a few patches worth of testing to see how it effects player behavior.

Also. If your gonna lower the experience LOSS on death, you may want to increase the experience HELD on the Essence when a player dies to increase the need to get the thing back, and remove the ability to summon them from alters..

I'm thinking if you see a red bar equal to half your current level, then you will feel a certain need to go find that essence, and get it back, much greater than if you say lost 1 tick...

[Farseeker]

Originally Posted by Ginfress

The only one whining so far is you. You don't accept that there are people who don't like this change and result in insulting and Whaaaaaa posts. Thats the last strawman tactic kiddie.

No, I haven't even taken up a yes or no on this.

But it's no fun on test with people shooting down every change that makes the games easier in one regard or another.

Most people posting here don't even play on test or have contributed anything to VG.

Test server is like a childrens day care center.

They should never have alloud Vanboys on test.

People are talking about what they want on test and crying whining every fucking time when Vanguard changes something or suggests something.

I'm sorry if I'm offending people here but people on test are a bunch of whiny little babies.


The game needs more people, and making it easier on some would help that accomplish, but no, you prefer to start pouting and crying cause YOU want what's good for YOU, and that's what matters to you, not how many people will play not what other people are experiencing, you are completely oblivious to that because every fucking suggestion on test gets shot down.

I'm sorry it's pathetic that Vanboys cry over anything and everything and use the "hardcore" banner instead of contributing something on test.

It's just a game where people should have fun and changes to make it fun get shot down cause people react like mentals on any change.

Lol, you don't even know the rate of change in XP, or how it influences the game, you haven't even tried it, hell, most don't even play on test, and people are crying already and threathening to go to EQ2 and to disband their guild in this thread, lol.

Like this post:

Originally Posted by falc410

I only registered on this forum to say your changes stink, leave the current system alone, it's good as it is. If you continue to make Vanguard any easier you will lose much more customers then you will get.

Seriously, stfu, the game doesn't evolve around you and what you like, and that's not what test is about.

[Ginfress]

Originally Posted by Elrar

Hi Everyone,

- Essences will return a large amount of experience upon retrieval.
- Your essence will decay after 70 hours.
- Altars will still allow you to summon corpses from before the patch on 3/30/07 (Build 1799), however, you are unable to summon essences.

My question is this: Do i read it wrong when after this change you can't summon back your essence and therefor have two choices?

1) get back essence for xp
2) let essence rot away and continue playing?

Because as i read it you can't summon your essence at an altar.

[Molpepadia]

I also just registered to post a reply to this thread.

IMO, the proposed changes make the game more like WoW or EQ2, this is not what I wanted.

Just the fact that sigil is even considering a change like this has got me so discouraged, I have not logged on today,do not fell like logging on, and am serching for another place to play a game that is not the same as WoW or EQ2.

I know the request was for feedback, but I would like to know the possibility of something like this going live. I have no intention of paying money for a game that has so fundimentaly changed from 'the vision' I to which I subscribed.

If this is going to happen, I feel as if I am just wasting time in a game I will not continue to play.

[Darkmoore]

Originally Posted by Aredhel

EXCUSE ME A SEC.....!!!

This thread is to rationally discuss something that they are testing. This is not one of the sites that will allow you to flame and disrespect each other or Sigil!

Please keep is civil! We will continue moderating for language and content!

/grumbles about silly habits like sleep that keep you from staying on top of things

Sleep is so over-rated anyway.

[Renvaren]

I really see no need to change the way death works. By getting rid of corpse runs you add nothing to the game. By making death totally trivial nothing is gained. I can't understand why they want to change it, it's not like death is a huge issue now, it's just risky enough to be fun without being soul crushing. I really hope they reconsider this, I don't want the game to be dumbed down.

[Speaker Trueword]

Originally Posted by Hasium

Fair enough.

No we are NOT "WoWifying" the game. Sadly it's gotten the point that if any change is made thats the first thing we hear. Vanguard, like many MMO's, will have some things that are similar to WOW in addition to many other games just like every other MMO on the market. If an idea works, then it works. But ultimately Vanguard needs to able to stand on it's own with it's own identity.

We want Vanguard to be more challenging than WoW. I hate the fact that in WoW i don't really care if I die. I'm one of the few it would seem that actually enjoy a corpse run. I like fearing death. It makes the game much more exciting for me. And that's the key, we need to fear death in Vanguard without frustrating the player to the point of giving up. We have put in several mechanics to work around those various issues. But at some some point it just gets too cluttered and confusing for the player.

TwilightSea asked the question "Why do you feel a change is needed?" What are the likely suspects?

While leaving items on the corpse in one way to make death mean something, it's also a customer service nightmare.
- Items get lost.
- Players think items got lost.
- Players cant get their corpse / items back and they don't want to summon their corpse because they will lose exp.
- the corpse / items are just plain lost due to a unforeseen bug.
- the player accidentally lost some items while looting.
- the player thinks is crazy that they can get their first set of gear back while wearing their second set of gear when clearly the first set wasn't good enough.

All that equates to CS getting clogged with petitions therefore making legitimate petitions take much longer.

So we are experimenting with ways to make death feared / mean something without over complicating it on the test server. This is by no means final, it's one small tweak. And I'm open to suggestions as long as it's productive and not lost in a sea of "WoWifying" the game. If we were going to do that, we should have started 4 years ago, not 2 months after we shipped. That's madness.

Simple solution, go back to the way Death was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. It was simple. You die, you do a corpse run. Nothing confusing about that. if there is no pain for failure, there is no fear of death. Remember when you changed death in Beta, and most of us used sucide for fast transport?

Whatever happened to risk vs reward? Struggling against the game enviroment?


If I wanted a easy game, I would play WOW or EQ2. After all they have few bugs, and are very polished.

Worried about subs? Instead of bringing more easy fast mode experience, instant travel, no challenging dungeon content, sorry, most content is a cakewalk and now no death penalty.

Fix the bugs, add high level content, make the content challenging, where players may have to actually try a dozen times to reach a boss mob and maybe, just maybe beat it. Like I said, there already exist easy games out there, if you go down the same path, what are really adding? Nothing ....

This is not acceptable! I quit EQ2 when they nerfed death. I will quit Vanguard if you nerf death any more


I am starting to feel the 14-months in beta, testing for you was a complete waste of time.

[Florinda]

It looks to me from Elrar's post that they're trying to eliminate a customer service nightmare, nothing more. Surely that's understandable.

Think about it, folks. You're never going to have to lose your gear anyway. If the old system stays, you can always summon your tomb to an altar and get your gear back. So given that:

If the xp loss from letting your essence decay is about equivalent to the loss you take from summoning your tomb to an altar, nothing has really changed, has it? The risk vs. reward decision shifts from fighting your way to your tomb (which, if you fail, can be summoned to an altar) to fighting your way to your essence (which, if you fail, rots). Either way, you get your gear. Either way, if you fail, you lose xp (the same amount? we don't know yet).

I don't see a difference.

People in big powerful guilds weren't going to take that loss anyway. People who solo or who don't have a lot of friends were going to take that loss anyway. People on Test will probably have to take the loss, like we do anyway. What's changed?

The predictions of doom for Vanguard are way premature. You haven't even seen the new system in action and you're declaring the death of the game; come on! The casual vs. raider animosity is always looking for an excuse to get expressed, and it's certainly coming out in style here. Please get real. Let the dedicated Test community get down to the business of testing this change and see if it really has much impact on game play. And if it eliminates a customer service nightmare for the devs, so much the better.

[bloodystump]

Originally Posted by Speaker Trueword

Simple solution, go back to the way Death was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. It was simple. You die, you do a corpse run. Nothing confusing about that. if there is no pain for failure, there is no fear of death. Remember when you changed death in Beta, and most of us used sucide for fast transport?

Whatever happened to risk vs reward? Struggling against the game enviroment?


If I wanted a easy game, I would play WOW or EQ2. After all they have few bugs, and are very polished.

Worried about subs? Instead of bringing more easy fast mode experience, instant travel, no challenging dungeon content, sorry, most content is a cakewalk and now no death penalty.

Fix the bugs, add high level content, make the content challenging, where players may have to actually try a dozen times to reach a boss mob and maybe, just maybe beat it. Like I said, there already exist easy games out there, if you go down the same path, what are really adding? Nothing ....

This is not acceptable! I quit EQ2 when they nerfed death. I will quit Vanguard if you nerf death any more


I am starting to feel the 14-months in beta, testing for you was a complete waste of time.

/agree

If anything, i'd like to see the system tweaked the other way and add a 5-10min delay to current altar summons.

[Rithrin]

Sarrene, I consider you the main representative of the side against this as you have a well-written post and most people say they agree with what you are saying. However, I'd like to point out where this whole argument falls apart. You're main reasons against this are:

Originally Posted by Sarrene

Suiciding
People "ciding" out. Suicide runs are something very very common in DAoC. Most people do this to leave a group, or to go back to town to sell, or to just leave the area to find somewhere else. Yes there is exp loss, however there is no item loss, no reasion to go back to your tombstone. At one time, DAoC had a reasion to go back. Gain back that exp. However, it became apparent fairly fast that one did not have to. Kill some mobs, do a quest and you have your exp back. No real risk there. I see the same thing happening here.

Time sinks
I can see these going out the window with the corpse runs. This was one issue you as a developer team wanted to have. Something to keep people in the game for a long time, to keep them playing and keep the adventure going. If you take out the current system, I see the issue listed above (suicide runs/deaths) becoming more popular. If someone finds they are in an area too difficult, they can cide out and find another place. The exp gain is faster as it is set now, to "cide" out and hunt else where. Faster then it is to run back to recover your essence.

Grouping issues
It was also stated by the developing team, and requested by the majority of players, to have a better system to find groups. Be it for a quest, to just grind to that next level or to do a full group plus raid. If you are making it easer, with out the risk or fun of getting your items back (or summon at an alter) Then groups will be more difficult to find and aquire.

Why would this cause grouping to be more difficult? Because,

--there will not be a need nor fear of lost items.
--Group wipes will become more frequent as the risk involved will not be there.

And then you go on about some more risk vs. reward stuff, all because there will be no "lost items", as you put it. This is where it falls apart, this one central thing all your arguments against this change absolutely hinge upon is incorrect. Even with the current system, there is no fear of item loss! As everyone keeps saying, you can always just summon your corpse (Items and all) back to you at an altar.

Suiciding out of a dungeon? You already can! In the current system, you die, return to altar, summon your corpse, and head on out with XP loss (Note there is no "lost items" as they get summoned back with the corpse)! With the proposed system, you die, return to altar, and head on out with XP loss! All this new system would do is cut out the summoning your corpse step.

There will be less groups because there won't be risk or fear of "lost items"? There's no fear of losing your items currectly as I've already stated and its not that bad trying to find a group.

There just simply isn't this loss of risk that everyone keeps talking about as the systems are pretty fundamentally the same.