Death Mechanic Changes – Feedback Thread

[Farseeker]

Originally Posted by Eloy

Just count the posts by "Farseeker" and you know why you can't avoid the change!

It is not enough for them to "say" once what they think. They want to change the world to their believes... in MMO you can! They can!

Look at an US Fastfood Coffee-Cup ... "you may hurt yourself drinking hot coffee" ... doh!

- Eloy (aka Hans)

I'm not the one screaming blood and murder like all these idiots in this post because Sigil is "asking to test" a new feature, they asked people from test server to tell them your experience, not go on about how you personally feel that it's not hardcore enough, and to cry about it.

I mention that, and now people are crying even more.

Not like anyone even tested the feature and said what they think about it like the dev asked, no, all you hear is "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".

There's a post on the WoW forums making fun of the Vanguard community that cries over everything and anything that gets changed, you should read it.

[Kipper]

Hello.

I just felt the need to register on this site to reply to this.

Before I get into the topic I have a couple of observations however.

1. Stop arguing and flaming each other. Whats right for one person or group of people may not be right for another. If you're old enough to write on a forum you should be old enough to know that shouting and screaming doesn't get you your own way, people just lose any respect for anything you have to say.

2. Way back on one of the early pages, one of the devs explained why they want to make the change, and indicated that the team was open for suggestions. Now, If I were them, having read all of this thread, I might be excused for giving up on it entirely - since some (but not all) replies are pretty pointless. Again, shouting and screaming gets you heard - but doesn't mean you get listened to. There is a difference.

Now - back to the topic

Personally, I don't mind death the way it is. Sometimes I play for a few hours solid, sometimes I play for an hour or less, it depends on mood. My activities in game also depend on mood. Sometimes I solo, sometimes I group.

Death, at the moment, causes me to say the lengthened version of "FFS" at my screen, get on my horse, and go get my corpse. This is usually because I died doing something stupid or not paying attention.

My main character is a Psi, though, and for the most part, assuming I didn't do something stupid (a high % of my deaths could be attributed to falling out of trees in cai'el brael) I can invis myself back to my corpse, drag it to safety and loot it. I get all my gear and most of my XP back, and i've had a time punishment for dying in the first place. Works for me.

Were you a character that didnt have the option to sneak or invis or take mobs away from the area, one death might turn into many. I can see how that would get doubly annoying. What is a warrior without his gear anyway? A caster for the most part can still cast, but a warrior needs his gear.

Sometimes, time pressures mean I don't want to run to my corpse, its a good system compared to early EQ when it might have been an hours run - here, we're not talking about more than a few minutes from the nearest bind stone. But still, sometimes, I just want to move on. I never do though, because I dont want to suffer the XP penalty for summoning. I shouldn't have died in the first place, probably. I generally think I deserved it.

On the subject of bugs

I have never lost any items of had an irretreivable corpse due to bugs (or improper play - I like to do stupid things but even I draw the line somewhere!) and if this is an issue - I would urge Sigil to concentrate on fixing the bugs before changing the mechanic.

So we know the current system isn't perfect...

And there are some people objecting to this new system. I'm one of them. I can see why a change might be warranted though so i'd like to offer my own suggestion.

It revolves around freedom of choice and a reward for good play and cooperation, and it is thus:

Firstly, keep the bind stones and the mechanic that creates a tombstone or corpse at your point of death (I like to see the littered corpses of fallen adventurers, it adds colour and a sense of danger to the world). Your gear remains on your corpse and the only way to get it back requires a corpse run, you lose a tiny amount - say 1-3% of XP which is irretreivable - a punishment for dying.

A slight tweak - for tank/warrior classes (or maybe for all) - You should retain the adventuring gear you were wearing and the weapons you had in hand - so that you have a fighting chance of being able to recover, but you can't access any of your bagged or inventory items until you find your corpse.

For those that don't want to recover - due to time or they just don't enjoy it, here comes the choice aspect. Have the altar, or a special NPC at the altar offer you the choice. He can summon your corpse for you, but the altar requires a sacrifice. You either have to sacrifice some coin (dependent on level) to the gods, some XP, or perhaps an item or items adding up to a similar level to your current level. If you pay the tribute, your corpse is summoned.

This way, you can choose how you lose out when you die, but lose out you must. A player must be punished for dying, or it has no meaning. So if it costs you time, xp, money, or an item - depends on how you like to play.

Furthermore, the altar NPC might offer corpse-runners a free buff, like a 10 minute invisibility to a temporary item that allows you to increase your /corpsedrag range, etc. Maybe at the cost of a few copper, or a scaleable sacrifice to the gods - another bit of XP or whatever. He might also offer other passers by a selection of buffs for a price - so that solo'ers can gain some 'group' benefits.

Maybe you can pre-empt your death by visiting an altar before you venture off into a known dangerous situation. Perhaps you can obtain an object that will grant a rez to a party member (assuming the group has no cleric or the cleric dies) for a couple of silver coins.

And lastly - as said somewhere else, introduce some player interaction (even with passers by) by allowing some classes to have corpse summoning abilities, or teleport-to-corpse, or find corpse, or things like that. Whether these people give them away or trade them is a question for their personal play style.

Thats pretty much all I would have to say

Other than once again, please be constructive, and don't assume the current/your way is the only way. Respect that people play different and what a different experience - and try to come up with ways in which everyone can have a little of what they want. Thats when you might get listened to.

[Sarrene]

I forgot to respond the "confused player" part:
How about this as one of many options?
As far as players being confused about how to use alters, recover corpse and retrieval after 7 days, there is a simple answer to that. Give a nice pop up for someone to read explaining their options and what happens.

I know I am one whom has ahabit of just closing out pop ups like this. So there is another viable option. Create one where they first see:
ATTENTION: DEATH EXPLAINED PLEASE READ
and they will have to scroll down to the bottom to close it out. Set this for first time deaths for player from level 1-6, and once more at first time death at level 7. It sounds like a lot, yes I am sure. However that system is already in the game. First time you find a new item, a /use item, or get a new skill in crafting. The same thing can be enabled for this by using the current scripts.

I am sure there are other work arounds also to get players to read about dieing and corpse retrieval. I could come up with a few options to help educate the newer players so they cannot be confused. Yet I am only working on my second cup of cofee.. so it will have to wait. I know for sure many others here can probably think of other and better options. There is a way to educate the players in this or other areas of the game with out the "hand holding" some have claim.

Originally Posted by Farseeker

Fuck, I make 10 posts on a forum and I get reprimanded by a german guy named "hans".

I'm not the one screaming blood and murder like all these idiots in this post because Sigil is "asking to test" a new feature, they asked people from test server to tell them your experience, not go on about how you personally feel that it's not hardcore enough, and to cry about it.

I mention that, and now people are crying even more.

Not like anyone even tested the feature and said what they think about it like the dev asked, no, all you hear is "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".

There's a post on the WoW forums making fun of the Vanguard community that cries over everything and anything that gets changed, you should read it.

Far I know you from other boards, and I am sorry to say, yet you are incorrect when you said "Not like anyone even tested the feature and said what they think about it." There have been respondes of such, including what they have experienced and the bugs. This goes back a few pages. Not a lot considering how this thread has progresed into several pages, but there are those that have. There were several people on the test server befor I got off the game at 7 (im cst).

Again, this is not an issue of hardcore vs casual gamers. Again, most of the people here I see posting voicing their thoughts and opinions are casual gamers. Some as casual as you can get.

It is about what the game was, and what the potential for it to become is. Whether its including this change on the live servers or other changes for good or ill.

The majority of the posters here, just like myself are voicing their thoughts and opinions on why they think its a good or bad thing. Not posting insults and using profanity. Relax little and just take the time to see what others are thinking.

You do not have to agree with me or anyone else. You can post why you think you like the idea. Take the time and test it out yourself and see what you think, and post why you like it. But please, as else where, try to be nice about it. You will be heard more efficiantly if you do. Even if/when you disagree. It is okay to dsisagree.. hence the "feedback Thread".

Peace,
Sarrene'

[Ysharros]

Nice post(s), Sarrene.

As for the trolls on this thread -- could we try to keep it constructive so that a) we provide the feedback asked for in non-censorable form and b) we don't scare away the very devs we want to be heard by? Common sense, I'd think, not to mention common courtesy. There's a sizeable non-American population here, including me, so please stop with the intolerance and small-mindedness too - you know who you are.

The various beta phases for Vanguard saw lots of different death systems. Some worked well, some not so well, and every. single. time. a change was made, people went up in arms.

1. The system is NOT live yet, so the sky isn't falling.

2. The devs have asked for feedback. No, that doesn't make us think we're designers, but it *does* enable us to feel free to comment. That's what forums are for. Be nice if we could do it politely (and most have).

3. Do we really have to beat the hardcore/casual horse to death yet again in this unrelated debate? Hardcore and casual are fluid terms and different people will interpret them in different ways -- in any case, both "hardcore" and "casual" people (self-defined) have posted here, often with exactly the same views. Let's stick to the issue at hand?

I've been thinking about this proposed change and I'll test it out. Change in itself is usually met with resistance in games, but if Sigil feel it's necessary then there's little point shouting ourselves blue in the face. Testing it out, finding the flaws, and commenting on those is probably more productive in the long run than trying to talk Sigil out of a decision they feel is required at this time.

I'm relieved to hear that there is no insidious trend towards becoming Telon-WoW -- if I wanted WoW, that's where I'd be. A large part of what drew me to Vanguard, and still does, was the premise that it would be more challenging. That, however, is also a fluid term. "More challenging" to me means more consequences for making mistakes, or even for sheer bad luck or being hit by the MMO-Karma Pixies. Bad stuff happening makes the good stuff more valuable, to me, be it items, events, or memories. But not everyone sees it that way. Ultimately it *is* Sigil's game and they *will* make it the way they want it. I'll put in my $0.25 (too many words for $0.02) and hope that what I'd like to see and what Sigil want to see remain in synch.

Anyway, sorry for the usual ramble. I'm not entirely convinced this is the best mechanic to deal with the issues at hand, but I'm also just a player with a limited view of what the issues at hand might be. My main hope is that we'll find a system that makes CS's job doable while still keeping the element of challenge I enjoyed.

(Note: I am primarily a solo player. I occasionally duo when the spousal unit has time. I try not to die, because I *hate* dying, and if that means I can't waltz into Trengal Keep by myself at level 12, I think that's reasonable. I've still managed to explore much of Telon and see many fine sights... including my own tombstone more often than I'd like. I've never failed to recover a corpse (though thankfully I've also not been one of the people hit by the various corpse-bugs).)

[falc410]

I only registered on this forum to say your changes stink, leave the current system alone, it's good as it is. If you continue to make Vanguard any easier you will lose much more customers then you will get. Just trying to make an even easier game then WoW does NOT guruantee you subscribers - why the f*ck don't you understand that?
Oh yeah sure, you just want to try - do you really think you can just try out stuff like this on your current customers? If it turns out bad and you change the system again, do you really think everyone who closed their account will come back? How naive can you devs be?
I expected much more of guys who have been in the business for so long, but you are like amateurs. Destroying a game through patching in less then 2 months, hell not even SWG could do that!

[kreen]

Originally Posted by Lilith

I approve of the change.

Before there were too many cases in which players could not get their corpse back solo because they simply didn't have the gear to fight their way down.

Forcing people to carry multiple sets of gear or beg for help is not a valid solution.

You can always get your corpse/items back with the current system barring bugs, you just use the altar and eat the xp loss.

The thing I liked about the current system is that you could improve your odds of corpse recovery and your items by using a bit of thought and forward planning.

Still when you look at both of the systems, current and that new one on test there really isnt that much different in mechanics, the only difference is one required a bit more grey matter and the new one requires less.

[Darkmoore]

Originally Posted by shawny

Cheap gimick fixes like this are just fools errands....Remember the lessons of SWG when you dumb a game down too far the players all go away...

I really felt a need to make a correction here. What Sony did to SWG was not a dumbing down of the game, it was 2 complete system changes in less than 6 months. Not dumbing down a current system, they COMPLETELY changed the game was played. Just had to point that out. Also, SWG subscription numbers are actually moving higher now, not lower. They are approaching pre-NGE levels.

As for the others here saying that having a lower death penalty will kill this game, do you really and honestly think so? Can you honestly say that a reduced or changed death penalty will drive people away? Do you actually believe that making the game easier for folks to play will cause subscribers to leave?

If that were true, then explain why WoW has over 8 millions subscribers?

[Farseeker]

Originally Posted by Darkmoore

I really felt a need to make a correction here. What Sony did to SWG was not a dumbing down of the game, it was 2 complete system changes in less than 6 months. Not dumbing down a current system, they COMPLETELY changed the game was played. Just had to point that out. Also, SWG subscription numbers are actually moving higher now, not lower. They are approaching pre-NGE levels.

As for the others here saying that having a lower death penalty will kill this game, do you really and honestly think so? Can you honestly say that a reduced or changed death penalty will drive people away? Do you actually believe that making the game easier for folks to play will cause subscribers to leave?

If that were true, then explain why WoW has over 8 millions subscribers?

Of course they won't leave. It's funny seeing people threathening to leave to EQ2 over it and crying over something that is still on test. Grow up.

Claiming they're the "core audience" or something and it would matter if they left.

It's not even on live and you're already crying and going mental over it.

~Test server is like a children's day care center.

VG is a trainwreck waiting to happen thanks to the Vanboys, pretty neat to watch it unfold.

more noobs

[Penth]

Originally Posted by Elrar

Feedback is requested from those on the Test server testing these mechanics so that we may fine tune and ensure that these specific mechanics are working properly.

Well, at least you are honest. Previous statements have implied that we have some feedback as to whether or not this change will be implemented, not that you are simply looking for bug comments. Thank you both, Elrar and Hasium, for clarifying the things you have.

I would like to state for the record, that I am completely against this change. And not for any "hardcore" reasonings. No, it's the sheer amount of reworking a system like this requires. Has any thought been put into how this will effect items and the economy?

Soulbinding is now worthless, save as a means of removing items from the economy. Previously, I bound certain items to me, as I wanted to have some gear when doing a corpse run. Now I have no reason to do so. Not only does this make it even more irritating that quest gear can't be traded with a groupmate when there aren't any quest rewards that I can use, but it means that considerably fewer items are going to be leaving the economy, because there is no reason to soulbind anything.

Does this mean that we can expect a massive number of bind on pickup/equip items in the future? That's the only "reasonable" solution that I can see, which is no solution at all. Particularly since you can now unlock a corpse for other people, so in a way, bop/e is pointless. I foresee a great deal of players trivializing content, as the best way to get gear will be/already is to get a higher level character to kill grey content and then unlock the corpse for you. This will/has also become one of the best ways to make cash. Go farm a grey mob that drops amazing soulbound gear/quest items and auction off the looting rights. Not only is it irritating to players who want to kill their own monsters to get their gear, but it completely removes the point of bop/e so you can't even shrug and try to convince yourself that it is good for the economy. A possible solution I guess is to up the vendor price significantly on bound gear.

Saddlebags have had their entire function/purpose removed.

How are these issues going to be addressed?

The thought of CS affecting gameplay is.. well, it's simply astonishing to me. Particularly given the amount of players who have no sense of fair play or respect for other players. What this says to me is that if I don't like something in the game - the best way of changing it is to organize a campaign of petitions. And quite honestly, that rankles. That rankles even more than yet another game completely changing its mechanics after I have purchased it. To be honest, that is the number one reason why I cancel subscriptions to games; complete system overhauls. Not only is it a bait and switch, but too often, there are massive effects that reach into other areas of the game and can't be addressed without other complete system overhauls.

[Darklighter]

Originally Posted by Darkmoore

I personally like these changes. However, are you truly prepared for the insane amount of backlash this is going to generate with the so called "hardcore" radicals out there?

It's about time that Sigil realize that pleasing the "hardcore radicals" as you put it does not equate to success.

Look at World of Warcraft! 'Nuf said.

I welcome any change to Vanguard that will bring more players into the world of Telon. We want VG to flourish not wither and decay.