Grouping with ghosts: my main concern for VG

[kuyzat]

I have played EQ1, WoW and EQ2 in the past couple of months and they all have their cool things but ALL 3 fail miserably at the one thing that matters the most to me: grouping. Will VG fail there as well?

When EQ1's progression servers went live this summer I jumped at the chance to play EQ1 again with lots of people starting from scratch. In the 1st couple of weeks it was madness with newbie zones crowded like nothing I had ever seen, some of them with over 500 newbie characters. Everything was alive with lots of chating, grouping, trains, people running around and interacting in every possible way. All the things that social players, such as myself, love. You could go to zones like Unrest or Mistmoor and quickly get a group without a problem. I hadnt had that much fun in a long time. But very quickly it all faded. Most people were just checking out the progression server and quicky left. To make things worse, the freaks were unlocking expansions as if they were playing a Nintendo Gameboy and once Kunark was opened the original zones started dying out fast. The larger the world the thiner the butter is spread. No longer was it viable to go to a dungeon and shout LFG because there wasnt anyone around. The final blow came from hotzones, imho an incredibly stupid concept as it is implemented atm, which made it so that there would be 70 ppl in a Overthere but no one in SolA. All that combined with people not using the LFG advanced tools (which are ok but ppl are just lazy) made it impossible to group anywhere but at that one hotzone for your level. It seems ppl are so used to trampling over low and mid level content they want nothing but the fastest track to end game. Such lack of patience. So, with great sadness, I left EQ1, yet again.

Next I tried WoW once again (lost count), I thought maybe this time I could find a new server, with plenty of young characters to group with. I specifically searched within the recent servers for the one with the most people and even sided with the Aliance (I prefer Horde) to have the most people to play with. Sure enough there were tons of people around at peak time, but at 4-8am when I play the most there are maybe 200-300 people online even on those servers (about 10% of the peaktime population). My copy of the game is for Europe, where I live, and Blizzard forces me to buy a US copy in order to play in the US servers. Big mistake. The customs in my country are a very serious threat to imports from the US and I would risk waiting for a month and paying an extra 50-100$ to get the game through customs so I couldnt avoid the offpeak problem. Still, there were some people around since the server was very young but in WoW you can do just fine soloing all the way to 60 so the vast majority of people dont bother to group until they are forced to at lvl 60! Meeting stones?! what for!? no one uses them. I tried for a while but I cant stand soloing to 60. I did it once with my 1st character when the game was new but now its just too painfully boring.

Enter EQ2. In EQ2 I am allowed to pick a server anywhere so I chose an american one, hoping it's peak hour would be closer to my (un)usual play time. So far so good. And lots of new stuff! The devs have been hard at work improving the game and it is much better imo. I wish I could continue playing EQ2, i like it. But who am I going to group with past level 10? Ghosts? In Commonlands there were 4 people lvls 10-16 and in Wailing caverns, the dungeon around my level, there were 3... In fact, in the whole server there were 18 people LFG. I know some ppl dont use the LFG tag but I dont think the problem would be solved even if they did use it. Am I doomed to solo to max level? Is that supposed to be fun? What are the Devs doing about it?

And how are Vanguard's devs planning to solve the above issues? Fun group gameplay without people to group with is worth absolutely nothing. Devs keep telling us how absolutely huge the world will be... do they mean absolutely hugely empty? How are we going to find groups in Vanguard? Where will players gather? How crappy will server populations be at offpeak hours? Will we still be able to group at low and mid levels in server 1 or more years old? Remember VG has been designed mostly for grouping, with soloing being much less effective (Amen!). I still have faith in Vanguard but I am worried. When will I stop doing minor errands for NPCs and start playing, laughing, cursing, training, living with other players again?!



progression servers = original content back from the launch in 1999 progressively unlocking each subsequent expansion (there around 12 now).
hotzones = zones with extra exp, double I think.

[Nil]

Originally Posted by kuyzat

How are we going to find groups in Vanguard? Where will players gather? How crappy will server populations be at offpeak hours? Will we still be able to group at low and mid levels in server 1 or more years old?

EQ2 really was a special situation because it failed so miserably (in no small part due to WoW) so that the only people playing after one year were the hardcore (and there weren't many of them).

In the original EQ, it wasn't hard to find groups for your low and mid-level characters 3 or 4 years after release.

I can't speak for WoW Europe, though I do think the segregation was strange. There are definately more than a few people on in the middle of the night on the US servers. Of course, this doesn't help as no one groups in WoW - until you hit high levels and have to get guilded.

Overall, though, the rise of the guild has hurt newbie grouping. So many people, especially compitent people, are in guilds - from day one (or in some cases, from day - (negative) 360) so they look to group with each other, leaving true newbies to group and progress more slowly so they are left behind.

So, I guess I haven't answered anything, Kuy. How do you convince people to do things that they don't want to do?

[Pirotess]

Originally Posted by kuyzat

Am I doomed to solo to max level? Is that supposed to be fun? What are the Devs doing about it?

And how are Vanguard's devs planning to solve the above issues? Fun group gameplay without people to group with is worth absolutely nothing. Devs keep telling us how absolutely huge the world will be... do they mean absolutely hugely empty? How are we going to find groups in Vanguard? Where will players gather? How crappy will server populations be at offpeak hours? Will we still be able to group at low and mid levels in server 1 or more years old? Remember VG has been designed mostly for grouping, with soloing being much less effective (Amen!). I still have faith in Vanguard but I am worried. When will I stop doing minor errands for NPCs and start playing, laughing, cursing, training, living with other players again?!

I dont think people are doomed to solo to max level but I do think todays gamers have to prove themselves to be competant gamers to get a group. It really comes down to a players reputation. If they gain a good one the groups will come to them, if they tarnish it they may as well just start on another server since its going to follow them around forever on the existing server.

Soloing can be fun taken in small doses. Its absolutely relaxing to not have anyone to answer to or worry about other than yourself at times so I do hope Vanguard retains some of its solo content for sure. That said, Sigil is absolutely building in systems to encourage people and help them group. The biggest difference between Vanguard and WoW in that aspect is that its more efficient to group to level in Vanguard in contrast to it being more efficient to solo in WoW to level. The LFG tools are also supposed to be much more advanced than previous LFG tools, allowing for a much more precise matchup of players. The chain, rescue and sympathetic systems are also another thing that Sigil is doing to encourage grouping. The results of those systems can be a huge benefit to players and really make things much more interesting.

That said I absolutely agree that Sigil needs to pick its population properly. We've seen what having too few people on a server does to a game in EQ2. We've also seen what having too many people on a server will do to a game in WoW. They need to get the proper balance to keep all the benefits of those early EQ1 servers and avoid all the disadvantages of all the currently overloaded WoW servers. I believe they are also looking to make the cities and outposts of Vanguard more attractive for players to gather in and set out on adventures from. Exactly how they plan to do that hasnt been precisely explained yet but Im sure we'll get some more details on that soon. Vanguard is also not planning to segregate the servers so offpeak populations shouldnt be hindered by artificial limitations imposed by the gaming company. At that point it will just be contingent on folks in similar timezones organizing themselves to meet on specific servers.

Vanguard will also have a fellowship program that allows low level characters to group with high level characters and vice versa. That should address your question about finding groups a year after the game releases hopefully. Sigil is also on record as saying they want to encourage playing multiple characters so perhaps they have some mechanics that will help there as well.

[Hexonyx]

I agree that the guild has killed the group of strangers... It seemed that all my groups in EQ2 were guildies, and we would invite or advertise to fill in the gaps as needed... If the new person proved to know their class, had an attitude that fit our guild, and popped up on our friends list frequently enough, a guild invite was soon to follow... It just seemed that there were so many solo's out there that had no idea what they were doing, or were possibly 8 years old that they would destroy any viable duo or three way group of strangers... again it went back to the guild and grouping with trusted friends...

Again i agree, the guild killed the LFG world... My advice for VG is to allow a dynamic guild creation and management tool, and allow guilds to flourish and the LFG problem should be minimized...

[Taronn Anvilmarr]

hmmm, I think you have the opposite problem i do kuyzat. For me LFG is the last resort taken from a stance of desperation. Solo play is the norm and a group is only formed with trusted and liked people i have seen a lot previously. In my view a guild is a way to keep the boredom down with a nice conversation while i am crafting or hacking my way to my next death.

Gotta think about that death penalty....lol

I recently created a char in eq2 on the freeport side and saw only a few people in the city or even outside the city.....but that seems to be the norm. The high-end levels are always crowded and that leaves a lot of space for newbies to do whatever they need. I quit eq2 for a while when it was crowded because it was crowded - i could not do what i needed because some other people(s) would hog all the mobs/items that i wanted.

I believe what u need to do is get in a guild, or create a list of friends, and/or a combination of the two, and then they will come running to help u lvl your low level char. Lots of people in my guild are doing that and they seem to be having fun.

[Nil]

Originally Posted by Taronn Anvilmarr

stuff that proves our point

Actually, I think you misunderstood, Taronn. What he (and I) was saying is that because of the percieved (or actual - it's definately debatable) need to only surround ourselves with people we can trust, life has been made difficult for the true newbie. Someone without a great deal of game knowledge or friends or connections to make said connections.

Most everyone I know is in a guild. You said yourself that LFG was a desperate last resort. What does that say for the people who are forced to view LFG as the ONLY resort?

By the way, Hex, are you planning to bring girls here as well?

[Taronn Anvilmarr]

Originally Posted by Nil

Most everyone I know is in a guild. You said yourself that LFG was a desperate last resort. What does that say for the people who are forced to view LFG as the ONLY resort?

lol very good point

the true newbie will have to be interested in the content and not the people accessing the content to have a good experience. The newbie that comes for the conversation and the group experience is going to be severely handicapped in the current mmo gamespace.

On the other hand, that is what mmo's are going to be like in the currently foreseen future. If you dont like and cant have a good time without people surrounding you in your beginning steps of playing, then maybe mmo's are not the game for you. Either that or get one of ur RL friends to start playing to keep you company.

What ever the reason, the existing atmosphere is the one you have to deal with and deal with it or not, play the game or not - that is the thing everyone has to decide for themselves.

[Mobius]

I hope vanguard has a space for new players not just us old heads, I want them to feel the same about vanguard as I felt when I first logged into Everquest 1. I hope we're all good to them and remember how it felt to feel unwanted because we were new to a game. I hope they can experience all the group content that they want to, then disband for a little or alot of solo action. It's my true hope that vanguard is an expansive universe where a player can choose their own gamepath and enjoy what they're paying for, not just make it a chore to get to higher more wanted content.

[Icecus]

Someone once told me in EQ, do a /who all 25, this will not only tell you who is online but where they are grouping.....sometimes tells work better than looking for group tools.

[Greymain]

The Guild is what keeps people playing even when the game gets a bit stale. Creating a good Guild structure is key to Vanguards future. I hated guilds in WoW as you were all forced to level at the same rate or lose contact and a level one joining a guild of level 40's was pointless.

A good healthy Guild has a broad range of levels races and characters and that goes for your game characters as well

I used to love logging into Horizons and get my level 10 char invited to join a group of Guildies heading into the wastelands led by a couple of level 100's.

there was about 150 in my guild and we all played together.. This is how it should be.