Race perceptions as a roleplaying aid

[Lightning]

One thing I have not seen any MMO do is something I have really liked about the Whitewolf PnP RPGs, for example Werewolf. As part of the lore on each werewolf tribe is a short box out that describes how that tribe views the other tribes. One tribe may see another as deceitful and without honour, while another tribe finds them more or less useful but not to be trustly implicitly. This is above and beyond the "global stereotype" more traditionally given by MMORPGs, for example: "Dark Elves are evil" and therefore all races see them as equally evil.

Taken from Werewolf: The Foresaken, the Hunters in Darkness view the other tribes thus:

Blood Talons: We can always count on the Talons’ support if we need it, whether we ask for it or not.
Bone Shadows: Is there something inherent to the physical world that drives them to the deepest reaches of the Shadow Realm, or are the
mysteries they find there more compelling than our responsibilities here?
Iron Masters: They say that they must change as the world changes, but they overlook the ways in which the world hasn’t changed. Is that a sign of ignorance or a symbol of their trust in us?
Storm Lords: They often howl and bare their fangs when a low growl from the shadows will suffice, but that makes them no less successful in their efforts than we are in ours.
Ghost Wolves: The plague that dwells in human hearts affects even our kind. Scared, scattered, they don’t even know what they are.

Compare this to the Iron Masters view:

Blood Talons: They’ve got more to learn from us than the latest review of human military tactics. They just haven’t realized it yet.
Bone Shadows: They’ve helped us identify and comprehend some of the newer spirit types that urban landscapes give rise to, but we’re better at figuring out how those spirits fit together in the big picture.
Hunters in Darkness: They don’t quite have the knack for blending in and disappearing into the urban environment that we have, but they’re fast learners. Maybe faster than we would be out there in the wilderness.
Storm Lords: We don’t mind deferring to the competent ones, as long as they’re willing to admit when they’re out of their league.
Ghost Wolves: There but for the grace of Luna go we. Literally.

You can see that the perceptions of these two tribes, while in some ways shared, are skewed by their own tribe's outlook on the world. The Hunters in Darkness are protectors of the wilderness, the Iron Masters, by contrast, are urban.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Do you think this would be a useful thing to have for Vanguard? How do the dwarves view the Kurashasa, and how do the Kurashasa view the dwarves?

Right now, the closest we can get to this sort of information is the odd journal entry such as:



However, we know the attack is viewed as cowardly, but do this race (I'm assuming this is one of the flavours of Qalian humans) view the entire Dark Elf race as cowardly, ontop of their more global reputation as xenophobes?
There was also an entry where a Kurashasa attacked a Dark Elf in a town square, ending up with the Dark Elf dead and the Kura dragged away by the town guards. Is there a specific racial emnity between these two peoples, or did this particular Kurashasa decide to stick a knife in the Dark Elf's gut out of nothing more than "gank him before he ganks me"?

[ThunderAxe]

This is a great topic and goes to the heart of one problem with MMORPG's.
First off, I'd like to sound off on the Dark Elf label. I guess "Drow" is copy-righted because this is the type of Dark Elf that abounds in gaming. A seemingly misunderstood/evil/capable of redemption/cold/haughty...etc.etc. race with one or two "turncoats" that go to the other side. Are they evil? Are they good? Are they neutral?
In D&D, the Drow was on the evil end of the balance spectrum, but that did not necessarily mean evil-incarnate; Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil were options along with the omni-present Neutral and each had a particular flavor to it. Chaotic Evil was your typical Psycopathic Killer while Lawful Evil tended to be more of a Sociopathic person who is too rigid and inflexible. At any rate, a Dark Elf-nee-Drow was evil and any differentiation was to be viewed with distrust and scorn until proven otherwise.

City of Heroes is (or was) toying around with the idea of temptation and redemption. You may start as a Villain, but if you wish to become a Hero, you must embark on a lengthy and difficult "Redemption" Quest in order to jump to the other side...and vice-versa, if you want to go to the Dark Side, be prepared to choke some puppies or whatever .

Saying that, I like the idea of having racial identities being a governing factor in character development. If I want to be a "good" Dark Elf and the history of the Dark Elf race is one of evil, then I will have some modifiers that I will have to overcome. Humans may find me mildly repugnant based upon lore, but if my race committed horrible acts against the dwarves, then I should be prepared to "throw down" any time I meet a kneebiter. However, as I overcome the stereotype, my modifiers should reflect the perception shift and as I gain in reputation and seasoning, I am viewed with favor by the dwarves, while becoming repulsive to the Dark Elves....(shake me, bake me and call me Drizz't).

The same can hold true for all the races...there doesn't necessarily have to be a dividing line such as in World of Warcraft, but more of a
Shades of Gray" game balance that could be found in WhiteWolf....btw, I still have my Rage cards and my WhiteWolf Nation ID....sigh.....

In WoW, there are factions that can be affected by your gameplay, such as certain NPC races and NPC guilds but this is for questing and you are still pigeon-holed by being an Alliance/Horde partisan.

I won't even pretend to understand the code involved in the type of game balancing I am thinking of...nor do I know how that would play out in a PvP environement.

In my old Dungeons and Dragon campaign, I played a Dwarven Fighter...derr...go figure. In the Player's Handbook, it stated dwarves as being dour and taciturn...well, that's how I played my dwarf, gruff and a bit of a jerk. We had a High Elf Mage in our party as well. Now, the guy that played the elf was a good friend and we rarely had disagreements in RL....but get us in character and all bets were off. I hated elves, all elves....dark, high, stinky...I didn't care, that's how I roleplayed. And though the elf tried to make peace, I didn't care and eventually, HIS character hated all dwarves...

That is the dynamic I am looking for...the ability to affect the perceptual environment of NPC's as well as PC's and the freedom to choose which faction I wish to belong regardless of my class and race....

I think that is a valid component of gameplay that should/could be available.

Now, I hope that made sense...I've been typing in between taking client calls at work


<sniff> can't we all just get along <sniff> :twisted:

[Fisty]

heh, I still have my dice bag... quite full though I haven't played tabletop games in years. In that bag I have a smaller bag with all my D10s so I didn't have to go through all of the others to find them when we played whitewolf games. I agree that whitewolf did the racial viewpoints better than any I've seen.

EQ did a bit of what you're talking about with faction... my brell (good god) worshiping dwarf is max ally with 3/4 of cabilis which is a lawful evil type city, and while my dwarf is far from evil she killed large numbers of the Iksar's most disliked race - sarnaks - and got on the iksar's good side. Now Freeport, on the other hand, which is a neutral city.. she's KOS in 2/3 of and max ally in the other 1/3. I helped too many paladins along the way.

I also played a dwarven warrior in D&D, my second character - ever. She was loud, she was usually drunk, and she wouldn't think twice about giving you bruises, for pain or pleasure. :wink:

[TheDrunkenDwarf]

Everyone loved my warrior in EQ. My mage however had the distinction before Luclin was launched of being KOS in every city in the game with the exception of North Freeport. (Hey, you had to be able to bank somewhere

Yup, even his high elf hometown wouldn't let him in the gates. Well, not without a fight, anyway


But I agree... the EQ faction system did work pretty well for representing cultural biases and allowing a player's actions to modify those cultural perceptions. In fact, it was one of the things that I loved about the game. I hope there is something similar in Vanguard.

[Lightning]

It's a good point that the faction system from EQ managed this nicely, but what about knowing how each race perceives each other up front? It'd allow you to roleplay encounters between members of certain races before you either visited their lands (and skirmished with their guards :twisted: ) or have to resort to getting the information from a spoiler site... I'm not aware of any MMO that has presented this information in anything other than the broadest of terms.

While as an individual your character may not yet have encountered many races outside their own at the point where you start playing, they must be at least peripherally aware of the existance of other races and their own races stereotypes for them:

Looking down at the nubile Kurashasa adventurer seated beside him, Lightning, the famous warrior, decided to impart some advice. "Don't trust those dwarves", he cautioned, "cowards and backstabbers the lot of 'em! Why I remember once one of them accused me of theft! Me! I had to kill hundreds of them before they'd leave me alone!"

[ThunderAxe]

Killing hundreds of Dwarves?!?!?! BITE YOR TONGUE YOU DASTARDLY FIEND!!

[Lightning]

Originally Posted by ThunderAxe

Killing hundreds of Dwarves?!?!?! BITE YOR TONGUE YOU DASTARDLY FIEND!!

<purrrr> She accused me of theft, I had to kill her to shut her up and it just snowballed... what can I say?

...just because I took some gems... armour... few swords...

...and I'm the bad guy? There's no justice I tell ya! Happy times =^.^=

[ThunderAxe]

<purrrr> She accused me of theft, I had to kill her to shut her up and it just snowballed... what can I say?

Bloody kitty cats....aren't they a delicacy in some parts of the world....

[Lightning]

Originally Posted by ThunderAxe

Bloody kitty cats....aren't they a delicacy in some parts of the world....

So are dwarves...

But before we derail any further - up front racial stereotypes, good or bad?

[ThunderAxe]

From a gameplay standpoint I agree with it completely. Part of the roleplay dynamic is placing yourself in situations that force you to think about how your character would act. If dwarves automatically dislike Kurashasa and they reciprocate, then the dynamic you play is the racial distrust and dislike. So long as there are no ugly racial epithets, the idea is valid to me.