Making Vanguard PVP Competitive

[Tarinth]

I've been playing PVP-oriented MMORPGs for a decade or so. I think Vanguard has some promise, but there's a number of things lacking--and if these are not addressed, I think that the more competitive players (which I include myself amongst) will grow disinterested. Therefore, I've decided to write up a few ideas for Sigil and the Vanguard community. It's possible that these have been discussed already, but since I'm not much of a board lurker (except on my own GuildCafe) I felt I'd just toss it out there.

Tarinth's PVP Enhancement Suggestions: Premise

Making PVP competitive means that it must be kept dynamic and interesting to everyone involved. There needs to be a constant exchange of attacks, counters and counter-counters or else it's either (a) button mashing or (b) spamming the same strategy in every battle. If either of these prevail for long, the more competitive PVP gamers are going to lose interest, which I think would be unfortunate.

For the record, none of the things listed in here are intended to criticize the players who have been employing certain strategies--I believe in playing to win, and optimizing your approach to the game based on what's available. Go ahead and keep using these strategies until the game is improved... Which I hope it will, for the sake of keeping everyone interested long-term.

Ladder/Ranking

The infamy system as currently implemented is silly. It only awards the person who actually delivered the deathblow. This should be changed so that the *group* that delivers the deathblow gets an equal distribution of points. This will award other members of the group for their contributions (such as buffs, healing, debuffs, etc.) which are just as important as that final coup de grace.

In addition, there are at least two significant bugs in the infamy system: currently, NO REWARD is given if the killing blow comes from either DOT damage or a pet's damage. Some classes do a substantial amount of their damage through either of these; again, this needs to be fixed, because it unfairly penalizes certain classes due to makeup of skills.

Make Infamy Meaningful

Currently, Infamy is a numeric value with no correllation to the rest of the game. That's somewhat okay--some competitive players (myself included) will probably be happy with the bragging rights alone.

Along the lines of bragging rights, it would be nice if you could acquire certain titles through infamy. (EQ2 did something similar) Some other rewards would be nice as well--nothing too great, as I feel that PVP itself and being at the top of the ladder should be its own reward--but it might make things interesting to tie it in to other aspects of the game, even if the PVP rewards were entirely cosmetic.

Battle Issues / Game Mechanics

There are too many "I win" cards at present. It is my belief that it is not so much the presence of "I wins," but the lack of counters to them. Here are the worst culprits, in my opinion:

1) Implement Mez Counters

I don't really have a problem with the idea of 30-45 second mez/sleep spells; but the lack of counters makes the game dull for the recipient of such an effect. There should be a "dispel magic" or "awaken" spell or something similar that could be cast by certain mages or healers. This would keep the game dynamic, and separate second-rate players from those who respond to situations as the battle unfolds. For example, imagine if we have sorcerers (or maybe some healing class) with an "awaken" spell. Now, in addition to mezzing one opponent and blasting a focus-fire target, they might have to pay attention to whether they need to free their own teammate from a mez. Things like this will keep the game more interesting and dynamic.

(Currently, there IS an effective counter to mez/sleep spells: have someone in your PVP group remain ungrouped, and hit your ally with a low-damage attack. This works, but I doubt it's what was intended. Why not just replace this with a real ability?)

2) Regarding "root" effects

This isn't quite as bad as a mez, because they don't take someone entirely out of a fight (a caster could still be fairly effective, and even a melee class could shoot their ranged weapon). However, some of the classes that are extremely dependant on mobility should have some ability to break a root ability. For example, I'd suggest giving the warrior class some kind of root-break ability on a 1-minute timer. This will keep would-be rooters on their toes a bit more. Again, it might make sense to give certain healers or mages a dispel-magic ability that could remove it.

3) Counters to "uber damage" skills.

Some classes have the ability to deal enormous damage on a timer. While these are neat/fun abilities in a PVE context (Word of Doom or Starfall to blast an otherwise weak mob when you need a little juice) they become a source of rather dull PVP conflict. Rather than nerf their damage, I'd again take the approach of providing effective counters/remedies: for example, give certain healers (or even mages?) some kind of spell damage wards that trigger only when damage exceeds a certain amount. Example: you could create a buff that sits in waiting until someone is hit for more than 50% of their health in one hit, and the absorbs the remainder. That way there's at least some defense against these uber-strikes, without nerfing the hell out of a skill that's fun for some players (or worse: starts introducing a PVP game mechanc that varies from PVE).

4) Disallow Summoning Spells on a target in combat

Currently, spells like Hero's Call can be used with impunity. Cast the spell on a member of your group and then hide in a safe place in the dungeon. Then have someone in your group invis/stealth into a dungeon, and start to attack others there. If they run into trouble, the attacker need only click the "Accept" button on the summon, and they'll be instantly transported to a safe location--and can do it over and over again. Suggestions:

1. Implement a spell that some class can cast which prevents evacuation/summoning in the nearby area. Failing that:
2. Don't allow summon to be cast on a target who is in combat.
3. Give the "Accept" dialog for a summon a short timer (20 seconds, perhaps) so that it can't be held as a trump card for later.

Monster Training

Currently, one player can wipe a group of other players by simply training mobs. The only effective counter to this is an evacuation-type spell, but that's not much fun. I suggest changing the monster-training mechanic so that monsters resume their starting position after training off of another player, without aggroing players in another group along the way.

Conclusion

Vanguard PVP is somewhat interesting, but needs more work to maintain a competitive and dynamic atmosphere that will appear to players longer term. I hope the suggestions outlined in this letter are reviewed by other players and the Sigil staff with the hope of further improving Vanguard.

Regards,

Tarinth of Tharridon

(Cross-posted to: Silky Venom, Vanguard Spheres, GuildCafe)

[Nil]

This is a great post. I like all of your ideas.

[dprundle]

This makes a lot of sense. I really like the PVP aspect of a game more than the PVE aspect. Hopefully they'll utilize some of your ideas here.

[Tybr]

Very nicely done.

However I'm not a fan of the title system implementated in EQ2. I found it acted as more of a deterant to pvp as people wanted to keep their "Uber" titles. (If they lost they would loose infamy/fame and possably be down graded in their title...So they would only fight fights they knew they were going to win...yuck.)

Heck I left EQ2 Pvp because of this issue.

[Tarinth]

I agree that pets should be targetable. I didn't include things I considered to be obvious bugs within my list, as I wanted to focus on the issues within the game mechanic. It would be nice if some attention would be given to the PVP-specific bugs, however.

[Tybr]

Hey Tarinth,

I made a post asking people to post their bugs. (Hopfully it will remain civil.) Perhaps you would like to take a go at it?

I'll remove my post about the pets as I put it in there. That way we can leave this the "Ways to improve pvp post." Perhaps if we can keep these posts informative and easy to read well help our cause.

[Solstice79]

I agree with most of this, I also think that they need t omake a new PvP server with a level limit on kills.
I know its a little carebear but no one likes haveing a level 50 camp your team in CiS mid major battle.
I also don't really like the infamy idea, I don't think PvP servers need anything special to PvP infamy is a rank, that should be enough. Title maybe but gear or wahtever no. I think infamy is fine, or maybe a genralized rank I..E WoW ( yeah I said WoW ) But once again people chose PvP server cause they wanted the danager, nto cause they wanted some special reward for killing someone.
Mez if off the charts and either needs a much higher resist rate when cast on other players or something.
Evac should be canceled as soon as PvP combat starts.
The group combat thing I haven't noticed as I seemed to get infamy from group kills. But I might of just lucky alot. If you don't get credit for a group kill this should be fixed, unless your dead in which case no credit. Even if your dead adn waiting on a rez.
I am nto sure if the Uber damage spells is so much a problem, as is teh fact taht someone 20 levels higher than you can 1 hit you with these. Which if hte yimplemented some form of level limit would fix that. I ahve yet to be one hitted by anyone near my level. Although I ahve seen a necro take me down 80% of my health in one hit, but I survived. Maybe its jsut cause I am a healer so I could heal myself, but thats what Casters do they need teh big hit. If you want a counter there spell they should in turn get some form of melee counter No?
And thats just my 2 copper. This is my first time on a PvP server and I am having a good time for the most part.