Paladins as Raid MT

[Daragoth]

In past games (EQ2 was the most recent) it was stated that all classes would be able to tank pretty much equally. But, when everything plays out it never seems to work like this. Maybe it's just everyones EQ1 ideas of WARs being raid MTs or maybe it's game coding...whatever the case paladins often find themselves as second class tanks.

Now Vanguard steps to the plate with the "equal tank" plan. How many feel this will really be the case and how many see paladins getting the short end of the tanking stick?

P.S. I'm going to be a paladin either way...it's just me!

[TheDrunkenDwarf]

I'm really hoping that all four tank classes will be able to step up and perform the role of MT (although with Vanguard's system, MT days might be over...)

I just hope that the "tanking" portion of all 4 classes is pretty much the same, and they differentiate us with secondary roles. It would avoid the problems where so many games have tried to create multiple classes that could tank equally well, but due to some function of the combat system one particular class always rose to the top of the food chain. I'm particularly opposed to the "avoidance vs mitigation tank" philosophy. I have NEVER seen that work out balanced... and I'm convinced that it can't be done. I will be happy as can be if Sigil informs us that we'll all have the same mitigation, and then differentiates us from there.

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to keep my pom-poms out and be a cheerleader for the "Sigil can do it" team. I have a lot of faith in them.

[Lightning]

Of course, the other problem with the "all tanks tank equally well" thing is the 4 tanks become homogenous with a bit of fluff to differentiate them (EQ2), but I have faith (or until I see otherwise) that Sigil can pull it off...

Back to the OT, while some tanks will excel in certain areas (I believe this has been stated officially, there are situations where you would want a specific type of tank), the need for multiple tanks should hopefully overcome the "One Tank" at the head of the raid mentality.

Only time will tell.

[Romm]

I'm particularly opposed to the "avoidance vs mitigation tank" philosophy. I have NEVER seen that work out balanced...

an avoidance based tank adds to complexity, and i'm all in favor.

I agree with you in that avoidance based tanks are tricky (the big monk nerf from eq1 comes to mind). And I don’t know if you knew this already, but eq2 attempted to tailor tanks to healers in an interesting way (though ultimately failed imo, but i won't get into that here).

In eq2 (before the big combat patch):

- avoidance based tanks / monks / gars were best healed by warding healers – as a reactive healer class (templar), I couldn’t compete with a shaman/ward-healer. hit less often, but for more damage, my reactives couldn't keep up.

- mitigation based tanks could be healed most efficiently by reactive healers. hit more often, for less damage, which my reactive heals soaked up well.

does it mean that a templar couldn't heal a monk? no. Was a shaman more efficient? yeah. mix the heal numbers around, give shammy wards more oomph, figure out stacking, and it translates to raids.

personally, i'd like to see 2 avoidance based tanks and 2 mitigation based tanks.

[Lightning]

Originally Posted by Romm

personally, i'd like to see 2 avoidance based tanks and 2 mitigation based tanks.

I don't think we're going to see this in Vanguard as the classes defined as Defensive Fighters are all traditionally heavy armour wearers. Avoidance tanks in EQ2 (waaaaay before the various changes, I only played for the first 2 months and 3 months of beta) I was in a raid (as my Kerran Paladin) where the MT was a monk after the original MT died, accidentally left the instance and was locked out.

This monk did an awesome job, though I had to lend a hand with warding him, but it brought me one step closer to restoring my Ghoulbane and there were plenty of "congratulations" and "I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it" afterwards. Sadly player perceptions go a long way in pick up groups, and as a result my monk was relegated to DPS.

Vanguard seems to draw the line where melee combat is involved. Plate tanks, non plate (+ dual wield, optionally) does DPS and "light tank" to grab agro from / protect / intercept a blow heading towards a squishy and stand firm while the proper tanks get agro back again.

[Romm]

i'm not saying i want to see gars and monks tank as well as a plate wearer, that's just wrong heh. i want an avoidance tank that tanks as well as a mitigation tank.
i'd like to see more strategy in healing.
i.e. maybe paladins become that avoidance tank, get hit 5 times for 200 damage, and the warrior gets hit 10 times for 100 damage, same result, but a healer has to react to both mob and tank combo instead of just mashing the big_heal_01 or small_heal_02 keys.

[Zenya]

Aye, like Lightning says, we won't have avoidance tanks (like the monks of EQ2) in VG. The rescues of Defensive Fighters (all heavy tanks) will be taking damage instead of another character, whereas the intercetps of Offensive Fighters (essentially dps) will be warding off an attack with an attack. Because the OFs can ward off attacks they will be able to tank up to a point, but not nearly as well as a DF, as they won't have the adequate AC (or other tank abilities).

What about the tanks being able to fill their role (roughly) equally well? I suppose we won't really know how that pans out until we're in the game. But the VG devs are no newbies to the industry, so for now I have faith they have learned from past mistakes.

[Glauroth]

You can't make an avoidance take equate to a heavy tank.

If you make them dodge well enough to tank a raid boss, they will be way overpowered in groups. If they can dodge high damage hits (Quadding 1500) then it will overpower them. And vise versa, if they're tailored to groups, they'll get rocked against bosses?

I just think the various tanks will fulfill their roles in different ways. Dread Knights by lowering the amount of damage taken with spells, and thereby making the mob's attacks weaker on party members. Warriors with heavy armor and defensive specials and aggro containment. Paladins will be the heavy armor and possible the Gifts of Virtue will stable them out. I think Inquisitors may be able to better predict various attacks and therefore defend against them that way? This is purely speculation just based on what little details they've released.

I think Vanguard has an 8 person group as well?

[Lightning]

Originally Posted by Kalas

I think Vanguard has an 8 person group as well?

They are currently testing 6 to 8, with 8 being the aim.

[Romm]

Kal,
if we're talking about equality among tanks, then that avoidance tank may avoid 2 of those 1500 hits, while a mitigation tank may get hit 4 times for 750 each - both being able to do the job, but making wards more effective for the avoidance tank, and reactive heals better for the mitigation tank.