Video of Diplomacy?

[Aredhel]

Take a look and see what you think!

Here is the press release:

Get a Behind the Scenes Look at Diplomacy in a New Video from Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

WHAT: Sony Online Entertainment and Sigil Games Online today released new footage from the recently released massively multiplayer online role-playing game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes that highlights Diplomacy, as this is the first time Diplomacy has been introduced in an MMORPG. The eighteen-minute long video includes voice over from Steve Williams, a game designer from Sigil Games Online as he explains what Diplomacy is and how it works in game. He also shows that players won’t always be “diplomatic” in the literal sense as they are even asked to engage in dark deeds.

Now, as soon as I get a good link to the video, I'll let ya know!

And something CK found yesterday that I thought was rather fun, This little tidbit from Gamasutra that discusses the progress of the "MMO genre." It's 6 pages long, but the read is worth the time, I think!

Enjoy and see you soon!

[SwordMage]

The Gamasutra article is "interesting". I don't agree with his criteria for judging a game, so I disagree with many of his conclusions.

My biggest problem is that I think he is saying that the MMO genre must shift it's whole focus and playstyle to attract players from the wider video game market. He assumes that current MMO players will embrace the changes that would make the games attract the wider audience, and I am not sure that is true (I would use SWG NGE as a prime example, but I think the changes made were not the sort of things he espouses, but rather pale attempts to shift genre without the kind of innovation he is looking for).

He does make some good points about adding more content and finding ways to lower grind and dead time.

[Myrdinn]

Originally Posted by SwordMage

The Gamasutra article is "interesting". I don't agree with his criteria for judging a game, so I disagree with many of his conclusions.
*snip*
He assumes that current MMO players will embrace the changes that would make the games attract the wider audience, and I am not sure that is true (I would use SWG NGE as a prime example, but I think the changes made were not the sort of things he espouses, but rather pale attempts to shift genre without the kind of innovation he is looking for).

I read it almost exactly the same way; however, I viewed it as an arguement in favor of sending MMO's the way of the NGE. Personally, I still use "cunge" (CU and NGE together) as a most despicable swearword, on par with something that should envoke a colliary to Godwin's Law.

In other words: I want something to earn, not given.

[Rithrin]

All I can do with most of the stuff in that article is say "O RLY?", because its the same thing a lot of people have been saying for years. But that's not the point, I don't see why you people are so against it.

Games need to make sure there are challenges to be met - challenges that are not solved by making sure you picked up a sword that's +1 better than your old one, but rather solved by the player reacting to it. Also that "grinds" should be taken out from games, which is tied into the whole solving challenges thing... if every mob is a new and different challenge, its not a grind! But, eh, I'll stop since all I'd be doing is restating the article. I'll just say the biggest thing I agree with in that article is making sure the game isn't about numbers.

I don't think the article is an argument for turning things towards NGE, because NGE was nothing like he's advocating.

[SwordMage]

Originally Posted by Rithrin

All I can do with most of the stuff in that article is say "O RLY?", because its the same thing a lot of people have been saying for years. But that's not the point, I don't see why you people are so against it.

Games need to make sure there are challenges to be met - challenges that are not solved by making sure you picked up a sword that's +1 better than your old one, but rather solved by the player reacting to it. Also that "grinds" should be taken out from games, which is tied into the whole solving challenges thing... if every mob is a new and different challenge, its not a grind! But, eh, I'll stop since all I'd be doing is restating the article. I'll just say the biggest thing I agree with in that article is making sure the game isn't about numbers.

I don't think the article is an argument for turning things towards NGE, because NGE was nothing like he's advocating.

What I was thinking about when referring to NGE is what Lucas Arts had in mind when they forced SWG down the NGE path: moving the game away from the staid MMO model into something faster paced, based more on player skill than on the numbers (what I hoped to indicate, was that the attempt was a failure in execution, as well as a bad idea in the first place).

I don't think that the ideas in the article are out in left field somewhere. There is a huge market for on-line games and many game models that can be financially successful (meaning that they attract a sufficiently large portion of the market to justify the development and maintenance costs). I am very much in favor of developers taking new approaches to serve various, currently under-served segments of the market.

What I object to is the notion that the current MMO model is broken because it doesn't serve the needs and interests of the portion of the market the article's author represents. While some of his points were aimed at fixing the very real problems with many MMOs; others were aimed at changing the types of challenges that the player faces in game (which, to my way of thinking is actually describing alternative genres: twitch games, puzzle solving, etc.).

[Siul]

Originally Posted by SwordMage

What I object to is the notion that the current MMO model is broken because it doesn't serve the needs and interests of the portion of the market the article's author represents. While some of his points were aimed at fixing the very real problems with many MMOs; others were aimed at changing the types of challenges that the player faces in game (which, to my way of thinking is actually describing alternative genres: twitch games, puzzle solving, etc.).

Agreed

[Ysharros]

Originally Posted by SwordMage

What I object to is the notion that the current MMO model is broken because it doesn't serve the needs and interests of the portion of the market the article's author represents. While some of his points were aimed at fixing the very real problems with many MMOs; others were aimed at changing the types of challenges that the player faces in game (which, to my way of thinking is actually describing alternative genres: twitch games, puzzle solving, etc.).

Also agreed, hence QFE.

Rithrin, I take your point and agree with it to some extent also. Current MMO design has got stuck in the concept that in order to keep subscribers, you have to keep them doing the same thing over and over and over -- time-sinks keep money flowing. Which may have been true to begin with (or it wouldn't be such a huge strategy now, one which I'm sure marketing depts still push as hard as they can), but I suspect consumers are getting smarter about it.

Consumers are also, however, becoming more experienced, more varied, and more demanding. ...And also, for some of us, older. What I call console-gaming is starting to influence MMO design, which is all well and good, but it's not something I would want to see totally take over the MMO field. I don't want to play nothing but PvP, or nothing but twitch-based, or nothing but... and so on. Yes, I would *love* to see a greater element of player skill involved, but if that means I have to play the equivalent of a console game then I'd stop playing MMOs entirely.

I *like* the old-style tabletop gaming flavour so many MMOs still have. It doesn't bother me much that the acquisition of "stuff" is still the prime motivator in these games, though if the focus on that is too extreme (WoW) it'll put my off just as much as any other extreme.

I'm not arguing that fresh thinking and new ideas aren't needed in the MMO genre. However, saying (my emphasis):

With apologies to the pen-and-paper role-players out there, this type of gameplay is not particularly compelling to the mass market, which finds more excitement in fast-paced combat with outcomes based primarily on player skill, rather than mathematical formulae.

with no figures or elaboration on what, exactly, he means my "mass market" is a little disingenuous. "Mass market" is not equivalent to "non-tabletop roleplayer" which is what his sentence suggests. The market for MMOs is, thanks to WoW, still expanding hugely and, in my opinion, it'll be a while before we can really determine *what* the prevalent demographic is in this new mass, and also how large a percentage this represents. I could just as easily claim that there are now dozens of player types, not just old-styleRP/new-style console -- but if I did, I'd try to back it up with figures.

Time to pay the Daedalus project another visit, see if Nick Yee has figures for that stuff.

Thanks for the article, Aredhel, and for the debate, everyone else who's posted here. As an avid gamer I'm really interested in MMO-design directions and trends, and in what everyone else wants/hopes for/expects. Even those I don't agree with.