Clerics need help

[Naiya]

I think it's generally understood (at least by those who don't play clerics) that the class has become *extremely* powerful since the 1834 patch. Truth be told, they were powerful before. The 1834 patch pushed them over the top

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy powerful classes. But there is a difference between "powerful" and "munchkin". 1834 pushed clerics from the former, to the latter.

before 1834 I had my Test Cleric - Sophestra

the following were facts before 1834

• I would have to pull intelligently
• Adds provided a significant challenge at +1 level (if i got one or two of them)
• I would *never* pull three dots unless they were -1 or -2
• My racial ability could turn the tide of battle (dwarven)
• Resting between fights was needed sometimes
• I would not kill as fast as a light fighter
• Tanks were better at holding aggro
• Taking on +3 two dots last *forever* and was incredibly thrilling when I finally won and lived to brag about it (happened for the first time at level 20)

After the 1834 patch the facts have changed

• Pulling does not matter unless I'm taking a +4 two dot
• Adds of same level or +2 no longer pose a thread - at all unless I'm mobbed (more than three adds)
• Three dots no longer concern me - even at +2 levels
• I've not hit my racial ability ONCE since the patch
• I don't rest between fights unless I was mobbed
• I still cannot kill as fast as a twinked out light fighter - but I'm not too far behind
• I died three times when teamed with a tank because I pulled aggro from him and forgot to change my healing target or hit my racial ability
  • I believe doing either of those would have saved me from death - so I take it as a learning experience and a testament to the power of the class
• +3 two dots take only slightly longer to kill and the thrill has long since faded

so why do I think Clerics need help? The short and sweet of it is, they are far too powerful. I solo with my cleric. I have only teamed with her twice. her power will continue to grow as she gains affinities (yea - she does all of this WITHOUT affinities) and continues to level.

Add the war affinity for the additional offensive power, and you have a light fighter, wearing heavy armor, that can heal and buff - she's a party unto herself.

To be fair and make sure my view was not skewed due to level (I mean she *is* 21) I rolled a new cleric on Live.

• I have to pull intelligently - sorta - I can take up to three mobs before I start getting worried
• Adds of the same level or +1 are a bit of a thrill, but not a challenge.
• I have not pulled three dots (she's only level 6)
• My racial ability saved me ONCE
• Due to the damage bug (hand of censure deals doubles all of your damage)I kill as fast as a light fighter
• I don't' know if a tank can hold aggro better than I can at this point, I'm willing to guess they can as I have no hate generators other than attacks
• Camped a +3 two dot just to level. No thrill. Little challenge and the only time I hit my racial ability is when i had that and a +1 add

Look guys. I appreciate power. I really do. I LOVE powerful characters. But there is a fine line between the powerful characters and the game not being fun anymore. Making munchkins is what I expect to happen around a paper and pencil gaming table. I expect my MMO's to be balanced and to present me with a reason to want to play the other classes.

I want the flavor and if I want to twink my toon so she can solo that is my choice and I should be forced to see the concessions elsewhere. Right now my test toon is using the URT armor and my live toon is using dropped armor from named mobs - I don't buy armor for my toons - so add that to the equation and you have something truly disgusting. My toon is not twinked and this is what she can do. If I REALLY set out to break this thing - I'd be insane!

Please, look at doing something to bring the cleric power level back in line with the rest of the classes (read lower the clerics power level). Please fix the damage bug and then leave clerics alone. There are tons of other classes out there that need help and need love and need their power level adjusted up. Cleric is not one of them

[Ysharros]

I agree entirely. Clerics were hardly underpowered before, considering that their primary role is *not* to kill everything in sight as fast as possible. I solo most of the time and even before this change it was eminently doable, although quite slow in killing time -- as one would expect from a class that isn't supposed to be a primary damage dealer.

Heck, even before the patch I soloed a +3 3-dot -- it wasn't easy and it took some playing (not to mention picking the right, squishy, fairy-mob victim), but I was in pretty good shape still by the end of it. I dread to think how I'd rip through them now. If I weren't crashing every 5 seconds I'd go and try it.

[Ialiliel]

Hell i hardly need to add to this after my other rants but it is blindingly obvious now they need to sort it out asap imho.

Ialiliet 34 monk
Frerra 43 tailor
Miyzia 45 druid
Healsrus 28 cleric (war affinity)

[Deneir_Allaston]

Speaking from the War Affinity, I think they could reinstitute a 30 Second reuse on Rout, and a 30 second (1 Minute maybe) reuse on the Bloodhammer finisher series and it would balance it out alright.

What makes the War Affinity seem so powerful is the fact that you can chain Bloodhammer over and over if you can get your dexterity pretty high, and it is very hard hitting- their big damage isnt coming from auto attack. Rout is also pointless once you have Bloodhammer since it is a superior line to Rout and has an Advanced Finisher, plus like Rout... it has no reuse currently. If they instituted reuses to those two skills, it would more evenly slow Cleric DPS (War Affinity especially) down to a reasonable level imho which would put them inline with other offensive healers (Blood Mage, Phoenix Shaman, Disciples, etc).

The War Affinity stance "Aspect of the Destroyer" by itself isnt overpowered. For the Cleric which is specialized in warfare; thats kind of the point of the Affinity, he should be a more impressive melee combatant since he forgoes the other unique ability benefits the other Affinity paths can achieve and the stances negatives themselves balance the positives of it while it is used. All of the War Affinity's abilities are melee based. To be effective with the War Affinity you also need to also have more melee based statistics (Strength, Dexterity), so naturally they dont have quite the healing potential as "pure healers" due to their statistic spread- looking it that way it tends to balances itself out.

So again if they fixed those two abilities I think it would bring War Clerics more into the intended strength range. Im sure Death Clerics could use some sort of tuning as well but Im not completely familier with ALL their abilities; it seems to me the Death path would be more suited to an "intelligence build" since most of their abilities are spell based damage and even their stance increases spiritual based spell damage. The other Affinitys as far as I can tell are pretty reasonably balanced. Preservation Clerics being the most traditional "pure healer", with many abilities akin to the EQ1 Cleric. Peace has better agro management, debuffs, and personal utility. Purity is well suited to dealing with Undead. The two most complained about paths are War and Death, and it is hands down, due to their increased damage capability. Breakdown of Affinitys as I understand them based on their abilities:

War: Melee
Death: Spell Casting
Preservation: Healing/Survival
Purity: Cures/Undead Cleansing
Peace: Agro Management

[kalston]

um i am trying to be fair minded here naiya but all the things you descibe you can do after the patch i was able to do on kalstan before this glorious uber pwoered patch you mentioned. in my testing opinion however there were more things broken then fixed in addition to death affinity.
in all honesty i notice no more overpoweredness nor less between patched i actually do just the same as i did before patch.
i play each class i tests as it were my only one and i have been seeing a lot of negative posts about clerics lately. one thing i can say about the lead and players in cleric forums is they dont spend all their time critisizing what other classes do but instead report what they would like to see cleric's do and they get it done.

[Naiya]

Kalston,

I do want to address one thing. I too, play many classes - 12 at this time, most on test, most are between levels 16 and 20, not all are listed in my bio because I don't know which ones I intend to keep for more than testing purposes

To address one concern, I find no merit in crying over what any of the other classes can do, I play the character and then ask how it fits in what I *perceive* as the balance of the game. I will admit, my perception could be wildly off, but if my cleric can tank better than a warrior, deal better damage than a light fighter and still be an effective healer, I find balance issues with that class.

I am not saying "heavy warriors can do this and I can't" nor am I saying "Light fighters can do this why can't I?" What I *am* saying is "Because of the abilities you have giving my cleric, I no longer have a need for any of these other classes. They are moot, obsolete and worthless to me. Therein lies a balance problem"

I have made this point by providing concrete examples of a character who is using quest reward armor and weapons. She is only using what dropped/is available" to anyone. That is how far our of balance this class is. I'm not even twinked.

To put a fine point on it, you can sum the whole of my post up as follows

"Hi guys, I play a cleric. NERF ME! I am FAR too powerful"

In so doing, I am doing the same thing the class leads and others are doing. I am providing the devs with the feedback of the tests I have performed and what I would like to see happen with the class. The power of my cleric - my main toon - NEEDS to be scaled back.

One class should not make whole subsets of classes worthless