Dread Knights a Defunct Class?

[Warhead]

Your DPS and utility.. yes real nice group utility (short) buffs will make up for your lack of healing. Warrior's secondary role is DPS, primary role is tanking. DK's secondary role is Debuff (although it needs to be improved). Pally's secondary role is group support/buffer.

[velzevul]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

Ok I just read this whole thread and I need to post again.

Warriors having a heal = bad

Warriors having some form of HP regen = Good; HOWEVER

First mitigation needs to be looked into (from Venge it is already). Second all tanks need to have equal mitigation potential. aka, buffs need to be equal. How we raise our MIT might be a tad different, but as we all know from EQ2 higher MIT = better raid tank.

Right now almost every tank class can hit the MIT cap. Once they nerf MIT, they will need to probably nerf Warders Bulwark a tad. 20% that I can MAINTAIN ontop of my 15% from D-stance is overboard, especially when the whole problem is the ease of getting to the cap!!

(The MIT cap needs to be raised as well to like 75%, but anyway)

For those against the warrior regen, ask yourself this:

If my MIT is the same as your MIT (which will likely be the case soon) what will us warriors have that will counter your lifetaps or a Paladins heals? Yea I know a paladin will never use Healing Touch on himself in a raid, but you get the idea.

Our Stuns make a little difference, but in a raid... yea lol. Stuns will mean nothing.

Anyway, I cannot wait for the MIT changes to come about. Then I will actually care about upgrading my yellow/blue 40-45 armor :P

I am so tired of typing the same thing... every warrior post that sounds credible, and honest, and tries to compare wars vs drk or wars vs pal, complain about utility and such things, what will set wars apart...

lets see... the things you conveniently forgot to mention -

you can really complain, when your class will not have these commands:
withdraw - wipe aggro
chain - -20% mob mitigation
something - next atk is a crit for entire grp
something - some seconds of double dps
chain - lower mob dps by 100 each hit it does
some more, i can't remember.


these are all buffs/debuffs though they are very short term, they are much much stronger than what wars or pals can do. It is a matter of using them. And so long as wars have that option, they have their own spot in a group or a raid. these debuffs are huge. don't you compare wars vs drk vs pal, and "conveniently" not mention these options.

and to counter your favorite "8 seconds don't matter, it is not viable" - i disagree, it is VERY much viable, and my friend war uses his to great success, and I am sure Venge does too. Mob is constantly debuffed courtesy of your neighborhood warrior. my DC supplies crits, he supplies real debuffs thats how our symbiosis works with him, as an example.

[Jooma]

Haven't posted here in a while, but I did want to mention that last night one of my warrrior guildies lvl 44 was grouping with me in PoA helping me with some of the quests from the area. We'd fight one of the lvl 44 2 dots which were hard for me at lvl 38 and at about half life he get off his chain and consistently killed the mob doing anywhere from 15 to 20k damage.

I said how crazy it was and he pointed out that I can solo red 3 dots and white 4 dots where can't do anything past a 2 dot.

While I enjoy the fact that the more mobs I'm fighting at once actually increases my chance of survival in a fight, I picked my class because I wanted to play a fun tank in a group environment who had enough utility to tank any type of mob instead of specialize against any one type.

Also the description of DC had me drooling.

The point is my highest hits are about 5k and that's with legendary. Even if he was 6 levels higher than me, the DPS he was generating over me was rediculous. Add that to the fact he has 7k hp unbuffed compared to my 4k and far more mitigation, I'm having a hard time believing I'm actually going to get to tank over him come raid time.

I don't mind losing the DPS match to a Warrior for the added utility I get. But I signed up to be a DK because it was stated we are not going to be EQ SK clones and we would be able to tank just as well as a Warrior and Paladin.

I don't think the answer is the nerf Warriors though. For Pallies you can give them better stuns or heals maybe and DK's just give us maybe a more powerful DoT and more powerful Debuffs. Or even make our symbols more useful/powerful.

[Meldryn]

Originally Posted by Cobalty2004

The tank classes in this game are so borked in terms of "Who are we?" that I dunno what to think. Should I have the damage I do? My answer right now is yes after seeing/hearing my healers say it was easier to keep a DK healed over me when tanking the Wavebreaker. Hell, the DK even stole aggro from me and I let him tank. So why shouldn't I be able to go to the mobs backside and put out damage numbers comparable to DPS classes?

When I become more of an EFFICIENT tank, then you can take away my DPS. When my healers don't comment on how easy it is to keep another tank up (pals and DKs) then you can take away my DPS.

No offense, Fraktal, but I was there. The reason Abigor takes hits better than you is because he is better geared to tank than you. You have some amazing dps weapons, and a few other good pieces of gear, but Abigor is completely decked from Rahz and you still have multiple slots that need upgrades. It is simply a gear issue, and you cannot say that DK's are a stronger class because a better geared DK takes hits better than you do.

[Cobalty2004]

Originally Posted by velzevul

I am so tired of typing the same thing... every warrior post that sounds credible, and honest, and tries to compare wars vs drk or wars vs pal, complain about utility and such things, what will set wars apart...

lets see... the things you conveniently forgot to mention -

you can really complain, when your class will not have these commands:
withdraw - wipe aggro
chain - -20% mob mitigation
something - next atk is a crit for entire grp
something - some seconds of double dps
chain - lower mob dps by 100 each hit it does
some more, i can't remember.


these are all buffs/debuffs though they are very short term, they are much much stronger than what wars or pals can do. It is a matter of using them. And so long as wars have that option, they have their own spot in a group or a raid. these debuffs are huge. don't you compare wars vs drk vs pal, and "conveniently" not mention these options.

and to counter your favorite "8 seconds don't matter, it is not viable" - i disagree, it is VERY much viable, and my friend war uses his to great success, and I am sure Venge does too. Mob is constantly debuffed courtesy of your neighborhood warrior. my DC supplies crits, he supplies real debuffs thats how our symbiosis works with him, as an example.

Hey buddy, I don't go by abilities on paper and numbers. I go by performance and what really happens when grouped/solo/raided.

[Azgod]

I agree with Warakus' thoughts about Warriors intruding everywhere lol. Something seems fishy to me when Warrior posts >= DK posts on a DK forum thread. Ohh Warrior regen = heal, it's a hot, it's like a lifetap, it's like what should be DK only; it makes no sense that a non casting melee can heal, bind wounds out of combat yes, but heal hell no. Otherwise the powers that be should just make everyone an archtype and let the player choose abilities from each class a la carte. Down the road class distinction will just be fuzzied up semantics if the line between classes is blurred even more with lame justifications for balance at all costs. Tanking boils down to mitigation, hate, and a distant third utility. Soloability is not even a consideration. From my limited experience , a lvl 31 DK with altitis :P. I would suggest this is how I would rank the 3 tank classes:

.................................DK........Paly... .....War

Mitigation....................-............+..............+

Agro...........................0.............-...............+

Utility..........................+............+... ............0
..................................________________ _
Net Tanking stats*..1-...........1+...........2+

Overall stats..............0............1+...........2+

*Tanking stats = Mitigation and Agro

Rank#1. Warriors trade soloability, to lead in both tanking and overall "stats". AoE agro combined with no penalty in defensive stance yet they want even more mitigation .......through a hot.

Rank #2. Pallies trade agro for buffage/heals. This in turn helps mitigation and utility.

Rank #3. DK's trade mitigation for added utility, getting to dc5 is a chore. This is a poor trade-off for tanking mr. 6 dot, but that is the price payed for "flavor". DK's get more bland with each nerf: shave a little off invise there, sod here, wod there, vex strike here, slay there, devour str here, DC there, non scaling spells here....


For warriors to actually claim a need for even better tanking abilities based on lack-lustre soloing is getting tiresome. Every other tank has a weakness, both Paly and DK's are in the primary tanking realms of agro and mitigation. Warriors is in soloability /rollseyes, and what tank did you think would be a better soloer when you started, one that can fear, snare, dot and lifetap, one that can self-heal, or one that can get hit while killing mr. 2 dot? I personally would not have chosen curtain 3, /shrug but that is me.

For Warriors to claim to need more mitigation (a hot) in order to increase soloability is a red herring, warriors just want to be crowned King Tank of mr. 6 dot and anyone with half a brain see's through the charade.