Malice (II) and Wrack (I) damage wrong? Results inside...

[Jinxxer]

Okay, first off I want to say hello to everyone since I just registerred lastnight. I love Vanguard, and I love my DRK but I've noticed that it seems to me that our Wrack (I) ability is doing too little damage, and the Malice line (I and II so far) might be doing too much??? I don't know, so I figured I would put this on here for all to see. Bear with me, there will be a lot of numbers in here and prolly will be a long post because of it. Anyways, here goes!

My Dread Knight Stats at time of testing:
Race: Vulmane
Level: 12

STR: 68
CON: 71
DEX: 65
VIT: 50
INT: 28
WIS: 34

ATK: 65-75
Weapon Damage: 23-32

Abilites Tested:
Malice II - 150% Weapon Damage + 32-38 dmg
Wrack I - 400% Weapon Damage + 44-50 dmg

Now it seems to me that even though the abilities say they use the "Weapon Damage," I am making the assumption that they are actually going by the ATK (melee) damage, otherwise the abilities are doing WAY more damage than they should. The reason this is even an issue is because our Vexing Strike ability says it uses our "melee damage" plus the additional damage that it adds. Subtracting the additional damage that my Vex Strike II does roughly equals my ATK damage number. Therefore "melee damage" = ATK rating damage. Why Malice and Wrack say "weapon damage" is beyond me.

After doing the math, theoretically the afore mentioned abilites should do roughly this amount of damage:

Malice II: 130 - 151
Wrack I : 304 - 350

***NOTE***: These calculations are the absolute lowest hit and the absolute highest hit you could receive. Obviously the numbers will be different in-game due to damage mitigation, critical hits, etc. Keep in mind as well, these numbers are based off of my character and my equipment.

ON TO THE NUMBERS!!!

These numbers were taken while fighting Summit Jumpers, Forlorn Cave Bears, Agressive Cave Bears, and Basilisks. All of these mobs were either level 9 or 10, with the majority being level 10.

Malice II Damage:

91 || 182 || 185 || 189 || 428* || 180 || 175
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183 || 193 || 297 || 291 || 192 || 188 || 289
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296 || 303 || 187 || 177 || 176 || 175 || 284*
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444* || 184 || 193 || 291 || 290 || 290 || 299
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184 || 187 || 193 || 176 || 189 || 182 || 182
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191 || 188 || 183 || 183 || 184 || 185 || 177
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300 || 188 || 169 || 178 || 175 || 195 || 276*
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287 || 176 || 178 || 177 || 190 || 184 || 190
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305 || 291 || 296 || 184 || 182 || 181 || 189

* triggered Wrack I chain

Number of hits = 63
Total Damage = 13,727
Average Damage = 218

As you can see, compared to the 130 - 151 damage scale that Malice II should be doing, it is significantly higher. Something to note though is that there are a lot of high damage numbers that seem 'out of place.' So if I only take the numbers ranging from 100-200 damage and assume anything over 200 is a critical hit, we get the following:

Number of hits = 44
Total Damage = 8078
Average Damage = 184

This is much closer to what it should be. Now keep in mind that these mobs were 2-3 levels lower than me, as well as mitigation and/or weaknesses are not factored in here.

Another thing to point out is that 19 hits were taken out of the 100-200 range, 18 of those hits were for 276 or more damage. Out of those 18 hits, only 4 of them triggered the Wrack I chain. I also counted on 6 different occasions where I heard the sound effect from when you get a critical hit, and it not triggering the Wrack chain. If I am not mistaken, Wrack I is triggered upon a critical hit when using Malice, Vexing Strike, or Harrow. At least that's what I've seen so far. Now I don't know if your INT and/or WIS comes into play to detect the opportunity or "weakness." If it does, that would explain the low trigger rate. On the other hand, Wrack almost always triggers with a critical when using Vexing Strike. Perhaps it's because those two are 'purely' linked to each other and it has a lower chance to trigger with other abilities. *shrug* Just a thought....

Wrack I Damage

282
185 (+370 epic hit) = 555
322
318
316
301 (+150 crit) = 451
289
201 (+101 crit) = 302
313
174

Number of hits = 10
Total Damage = 3322
Average Damage = 332

Now if we subtract the critical and epic hit damage modifiers we get:

Number of hits = 10
Total Damage = 2701
Average Damage = 270

Now referencing the 304-350 damage that Wrack I should be doing, we are anywhere from 34 - 84 damage short. With the crits factored in, it's right on target. Now keep in mind, Wrack doesn't trigger incredibly often and right now I only have 10 hits recorded on here. As far as statistics go, the bigger the sample, the better. Unfortunately I don't have the time to blow trying to get a larger sample for Wrack. Irregardless, 50% of the hits were below the low-end of the target damage scale. Once again, damage mitigation and the likes are not figured into this.

CONCLUSION:

From my perspective, I believe that there are some discrepancies in the damage that Malice II and Wrack I (if not the entire line) should be doing. The whole reason I even decided to test this was because I felt that my Wrack I chain should be doing significantly more damage than my Malice line of abilities. This was not the case. Upon further analysis, the damage difference between the two is only 86* points of damage. Ultimately Wrack should be doing at least 174 more points of damage than Malice. Keep in mind that Malice IS doing more damage than the figures show it should be doing. Malice is also pretty much a guaruntee that it can and will be used in a fight, so some of the damage lost in Wrack is gained through the extra damage that Malice has. My only remaining concern is how the chain trigger for Wrack really works. Is it linked to one main ability with a lesser chance to trigger with other abilities, or is it supposed to trigger on a critical strike with multiple abilities no matter what; does WIS and INT come into play for when a chain can be triggered? I would assume so, but alas, I do not know. I just find it disheartening that Wrack only triggered 22% of the time upon a critical strike when using Malice II.**

--------------------
* Figure taken from the Malice II 100-200 damage range average and the Wrack w/o crit modifier average.

**This is assuming that the 18 hits of 276+ were critical strikes.

~ALL FIGURES DO NOT FACTOR IN ANY DAMAGE MITIGATION, RESISTANCES, AND/OR WEAKNESSES THE MOBS MAY HAVE HAD UPON THE TIME OF TESTING~

[XeroKill]

I think it will be possible to debunk you numbers. Try looking at just regular auto-attack numbers. If ATK = Melee damage then auto attack should only ever hit as hard as what your ATK numbers say, but they don't. They hit higher and lower on a constant basis. This is true of ALL classes and ALL abilities and has been so since Beta 4 (probably more). There has to be some unseen anomalies that are calculated into their damage formulas that we do not see.

Secondly, the last thing we need right now is a nerf to Malice. It was nerfed already by getting its 15 seconds cooldown, which was reported as getting a 6 second cooldown, but I digress. The numbers that you provided are only the very top surface and the most superficial form of the damage calculations. To be honest, there is no way you can even begin to make this "conclusion" unless you know for certain how the game calculates its damage tables. So unless you can provide us with not only the damage formulas, but proof positive that they are accurate, there is no way that you can begin to make posts like this.

And to be perfectly honest I really hope that people will refrain from further posts of this nature that are based solely on 3rd grade math and the numbers they see in their combat logs. It will only lead to hysteria, confusion, and possible nerfs. No offense is intended by this, but your numbers are hardly conclusive.

[labrat]

Originally Posted by XeroKill

I think it will be possible to debunk you numbers. Try looking at just regular auto-attack numbers. If ATK = Melee damage then auto attack should only ever hit as hard as what your ATK numbers say, but they don't. They hit higher and lower on a constant basis. This is true of ALL classes and ALL abilities and has been so since Beta 4 (probably more). There has to be some unseen anomalies that are calculated into their damage formulas that we do not see.

Secondly, the last thing we need right now is a nerf to Malice. It was nerfed already by getting its 15 seconds cooldown, which was reported as getting a 6 second cooldown, but I digress. The numbers that you provided are only the very top surface and the most superficial form of the damage calculations. To be honest, there is no way you can even begin to make this "conclusion" unless you know for certain how the game calculates its damage tables. So unless you can provide us with not only the damage formulas, but proof positive that they are accurate, there is no way that you can begin to make posts like this.

And to be perfectly honest I really hope that people will refrain from further posts of this nature that are based solely on 3rd grade math and the numbers they see in their combat logs. It will only lead to hysteria, confusion, and possible nerfs. No offense is intended by this, but your numbers are hardly conclusive.

While i agree that things are fine the way they are you certainly didnt have to attack like that.

DrK right now is sorta on the lame end of things. We are a tank driven by DPS to maintain agro and yet they feel it is necessary to lower our damage output enough to basically render us useless in most fights. Even being an off tank most times its a waste of time.

They really need to get over this oh DrK is parsing to high and get us back to DPSing so we can maintain our agro case closed.

[Jinxxer]

Originally Posted by XeroKill

I think it will be possible to debunk you numbers. Try looking at just regular auto-attack numbers. If ATK = Melee damage then auto attack should only ever hit as hard as what your ATK numbers say, but they don't. They hit higher and lower on a constant basis. This is true of ALL classes and ALL abilities and has been so since Beta 4 (probably more). There has to be some unseen anomalies that are calculated into their damage formulas that we do not see.

Secondly, the last thing we need right now is a nerf to Malice. It was nerfed already by getting its 15 seconds cooldown, which was reported as getting a 6 second cooldown, but I digress. The numbers that you provided are only the very top surface and the most superficial form of the damage calculations. To be honest, there is no way you can even begin to make this "conclusion" unless you know for certain how the game calculates its damage tables. So unless you can provide us with not only the damage formulas, but proof positive that they are accurate, there is no way that you can begin to make posts like this.

And to be perfectly honest I really hope that people will refrain from further posts of this nature that are based solely on 3rd grade math and the numbers they see in their combat logs. It will only lead to hysteria, confusion, and possible nerfs. No offense is intended by this, but your numbers are hardly conclusive.

You know, this post more than anything was there to raise some discussion and answer some questions for me on how things function (i.e. Wrack triggers, etc.). I NEVER ONCE said that my numbers were perfect, exact or anything that should be taken in the highest regard. In fact, several times I mentioned how there are several other factors that can come in to play to affect them. I never once cried for a nerf to anything and for the most part reasoned out that things are still "okay" and if anything we're doing too little damage.

As for the melee attack numbers, from what I have seen so far, my auto-attack damage numbers stay within my ATK damage range on my character sheet unless I'm attacking a mob SEVERAL levels lower than I am or I get a critical hit and the likes. Keep in mind too that mobs DO have resistances and mitigation. I pointed out NUMEROUS times that those factors are not taken into consideration on the outcomes because I don't know their stats. So the best way I equalled it out was by getting numbers from the same mob types so there was little discrepency.

And yes, I do take offense. You were a compelte dick about it. I can withstand a retort because this was to raise some more awareness and discussion, but when you decide to attack me and try to make me look like a complete idiot, that pisses me off. Good for you. I will not stoop to your level.

I tried to take out as many variables as I could with the time I had alotted to me. The biggest thing I wanted to point out, and as I stated in my conclusion was that Wrack I should be doing more damage than it is. It doesn't do much over Malice II. So irregardless of formulas, the numbers I posted up can still fly because on most cases, EVERYTHING ELSE ASIDE, Wrack I is still not over damaging Malice II as it should be. That's a simple case of (400% + 44-50) is a lot greater than (150% + 32-38 ).

[TeamSKKeris]

Your numbers are not correct.

I don't know why, but from playing and watching my numbers scroll (I have all my damage in one visible window). I can tell you that Wrack always .. and I do mean always .. does more damage than Malice.

Right now I am level 20:

Wracks for me tend to hit in the 450-750 ranges non-crit, and anywhere between 750-2500 damage crit (yay for noticing weaknesses while hitting epics).

Malice does anywhere from 150-450 non-crit, and 200-900 damage critting.

NOTE: I use weapons way above my level (yellow level 26 2h), and this damage is probably a bit exaggerated for a normal dread knight.

[Jinxxer]

My Wrack mostly does more damage than Malice as well, it's the fact that the damages would tend to be so close to each other, as often as they were, that threw me off. One would think you would see a significant difference between the two in terms of regular damage when using the ability.

The big question I guess is if the 18 274+dmg hits form Malice II were criticals or not. I assumed they were because 4 of them were confirmed crits (also triggering Wrack I), with 6 crit 'sounds' (and not triggering Wrack) making total of 10 crits. That still leaves 8 of those hits in question. If that's the case, the ultimate question I want to know is how the trigger works on Wrack. If it's anytime you get a critical using the ability, or if your INT/WIS comes into play at all. These are things I'm just trying to get clear for myself, and maybe others out there.

I appreciate you taking the time to look at and post a few results though. I still personally think that Malice's max damage (excluding crits) should never be as high as Wrack's minimum damage, just due to how the abilities are said to work from their descriptions.

Remember, I didn't say Wrack wasn't out damaging Malice. I said:

Originally Posted by Jinxxer

Wrack I is still not over damaging Malice II as it should be. That's a simple case of (400% + 44-50) is a lot greater than (150% + 32-38 ).

lol...and upon reading back over that, I guess I should clarify that I meant "as MUCH as it should be." My fault for being a bit vague there. :wink:

[XeroKill]

Originally Posted by Jinxxer

You know, this post more than anything was there to raise some discussion and answer some questions for me on how things function (i.e. Wrack triggers, etc.). I NEVER ONCE said that my numbers were perfect, exact or anything that should be taken in the highest regard. In fact, several times I mentioned how there are several other factors that can come in to play to affect them. I never once cried for a nerf to anything and for the most part reasoned out that things are still "okay" and if anything we're doing too little damage.

As for the melee attack numbers, from what I have seen so far, my auto-attack damage numbers stay within my ATK damage range on my character sheet unless I'm attacking a mob SEVERAL levels lower than I am or I get a critical hit and the likes. Keep in mind too that mobs DO have resistances and mitigation. I pointed out NUMEROUS times that those factors are not taken into consideration on the outcomes because I don't know their stats. So the best way I equalled it out was by getting numbers from the same mob types so there was little discrepency.

And yes, I do take offense. You were a compelte dick about it. I can withstand a retort because this was to raise some more awareness and discussion, but when you decide to attack me and try to make me look like a complete idiot, that pisses me off. Good for you. I will not stoop to your level.

I tried to take out as many variables as I could with the time I had alotted to me. The biggest thing I wanted to point out, and as I stated in my conclusion was that Wrack I should be doing more damage than it is. It doesn't do much over Malice II. So irregardless of formulas, the numbers I posted up can still fly because on most cases, EVERYTHING ELSE ASIDE, Wrack I is still not over damaging Malice II as it should be. That's a simple case of (400% + 44-50) is a lot greater than (150% + 32-38 ).

Enhance your calm, John Spartan. I am terribly sorry if I hurt your feelings, but that was never my intention. I cannot honestly understand how or why you would take offense to my remarks. Aside from the last paragraph which could be misconstrued as "snippy" at best, there was nothing in my post that was derogatory or inflammatory. The fact is, the calculations that you provided as your evidence are indeed derived from math that most people learn in the 3rd grade. That is not an insult, it is a fact. I can assure you that if we had been discussing this in person, you would have understood my inflection and the desired approach to my post.

OK moving on! So if you were concerned more with the trigger rate and mechanics of Wrack and not the damage as it compares to Malice, then why is the post labeled as "Malice (II) and Wrack (I) damage wrong? Results inside..." instead of "Wrack (I) Not Triggering Like it Should? Results inside..." or something to that effect? In fact, the majority of your post focuses on the damage of Wrack as it compares to Malice, and only a very small portion of that post calls into question the frequency at which Wrack occurs. Correct me if I am wrong, but the majority of the original post in which I replied to focuses primarily on the damage of Wrack and Malice, does it not?

Additionally, I never said that you were asking for a nerf... I said that this kind of unfounded speculation can lead to nerfs. The reason I said that is because a lot of ignorant people like to read forums, and when they see ANY post that contains any kind of logical thought and especially math, they love to take it and run with it like a pair of scissors.

I have no issues debating with you, however if you wanted to chat about the trigger mechanics of our Finishers then perhaps next time you can spare more than a couple sentences to the real topic you wish to discuss.

If it helps, and I doubt it will, I am writing this with the tone and temperament of a calm and rational debater, not as a flame or an insult. I am not upset or frantically responding to your post. Please do not take it out of context. I am not trying to insult you or anyone else. I am just trying to run damage control so that some nut-job Paladin doesn't come in here and copy this post to all his buddies and proclaim "ZOMG Nerf Dread Knights!" or so that some nut-job Dread Knight doesn't start running around screaming that the sky is falling.

[Azgod]

I like your attempt to quantify damage, instead of trying to "debunk" your analysis with words others should put forth thier own theories with numbers. Is there a parser that works with VG?

[TeamSKKeris]

I believe on Vanguard Interface site there is a parser. I don't know its full functionality. I went back over my logs again last night, and still do not get anything close to the numbers you are showing.

Wrack 650-800, Malice 250-400. Non-crits. Working as intended.

[Jinxxer]

First off I want to say thnk you to XeroKill. Yesterday was kind of a rough day for me as a whole, so I got worked up a bit easily. I hope there are no hard feelings. The main idea of the post really was that Wrack I for me, at my level was doing damages too close to Malice II. That's the whole reason I tested it. When I got my finished with the numbers I collected, several other things appeared, and based off of simple assumed and logical formulas, it appeared the damage for the two abilities were incorrect, hence the post title. Now as I said, it seemed that it seemed to even itself out in the end for the most part, but either the Malice II crit detection is messed up and/or Wrack I triggers very few times off of Malice II crits. Not to mention Wrack I should have been doing at least a noticable amount more of damage than Malice II.

Perhaps the damage scales down at the lower level to prevent players from WTFpwning mobs. Although I am happy to see that things are working right for you Keris, at least for me, at my level, Wrack I is still doing damages very close to Malice II. I spent a good couple hours in VoH lastnight and kept an eye on my combat log and still was disappointed to see the numbers not far off from each other.

Unfortunately the parser on there is jsut a basic chat log parser, so after spending hours of fighting, it'd be a PITA to go through all of that picking out the things you needed. lol