A Concern: Dread Knight Defensive Stance

[BigGino]

I am pretty sure that devs have said they were designing an equal amount of fights where each tank is prefered. I think you might have to change the way your thinking a bit. What a bout encounters that require the main tank to fear the mob and or adds. What a bout an incounter whith 90% inc damage from spells. Encounters can require more ae agro or better single target hate generation. Evev encounters where the mob memblurs or whatever alot and rescues become more valuable then holding agro. Undead encounters which I read that Pallys will have an advantage both offensivly and defensivly, although I havent read up on it enough to know for sure. Taking on the later lessons from eq where raids have chalenging scripts which require different people in the raid to do different things depeding on what there roll is and such would be an excellent idea.

For me in a perfect world all if 3 (4 for the lost inq) can tank well in the single group game and the raid encounters have enough variety to keep us prefered in around 1/3 of them I will be happy.

What I dont want is a situation where all 3 tanks can be used in any raid, thus making th best geared one from guild the mt everytime.

[TeamSKKeris]

Encounter where melee damage is very low, but spiritual damage and hate generation from it is tripled.

[Bloodrite]

No offense, but this all seems like the exact whiney crap you seemed to be trying to avoid/preempt.

You remember we're still in beta right? There are no 'trends' yet. Nearly every patch we're seeing classes abilities tweaked.

I'm guessing nearly NOONE has been on any raids yet where they felt inferior to warrior X. Also, you realize there is ALOT more going on than just damage mitigation right? When was the last time you saw a warrior shadow step and then pull off 3 different life taps? (Yeah, warriors are prolly whining about that just like you are...)

My hunch is that if you were to ask all of the people considering DK's as their main, that almost to a man they'd say that they were really enjoying their character. Which is suppoed to be the point right?

Ultimately, if you're in a good guild it won't matter to them what class you are they'll find a way to get you in on the raids if it's what you want, so what are you worried about? That a PUG will take a warrior over a DK How many 26 man PUG's do you anticipate raiding with?

I suspect that the difference between a warriors few % points of dmg mitigation and our ability to life tap will offset enough that it will not be the overriding factor on whether or not you fulfill your role in a group, it'll come down to whether or not you're any good at your class. And if it's just Sk prejudices you're worried about, well then congrats you just helped to further the myth that somehow we are inferior.

[TeamSKKeris]

We need to weed out some DK people. Keep saying they are horrible, and then everyone will make Pallys and Warriors.

By the time everyone gets decent levels they will see that DKs are awesome, and we will be a more valued commodity.

1. Tell everyone DKs suck.
2. Weed out people who will believe that.
3. ???
4. Profit!

[Bloodrite]

Haha! Love it. Yes we suck!! Now go re-roll. :twisted:

[BigGino]

3. ??? Lie in waitng like a rabid dog

[Eclipse]

Xero - I think we will see a good number of boss fights where the mob will do an attack that will kill you if it hits. Or do something like 10,000 damage once or twice per battle.

A warrior has no way of simply saying 'No' to that damage. And in endgame fights, I have a feeling simply rescuing will not work on a boss/tank relationship. A Paladin or Dreadknight can pop invulnerability and all 10,000 damage is negated.

That is one type of encounter that would make it necessary to have MTs of more than one class. Paladins have undead which they are inarguably more powerful agaisnt, and I hope we see a lot of undead because of it. Warriors DO have group buffs by the way...their commands are useful, but not on the rank of Paladin and DK group helpfulness.

Krutt Fuzzybottom said he would be happy as a Paladin to tank 20% of content at 50. When Inquisitor becomes available, I would say 20% is a good thing to expect. We might want more, but we should be satisfied with 20% out of 4 tanks. Without the Inq, I would be happy with 30%. I'm not trying to stir debate, and if DK ends up with 40% I'm still happy...but I would not complain if I got to tank 20-30% of the time because I was needed. Not unhappy at all.

-Eclipse

[XeroKill]

Originally Posted by Bloodrite

No offense, but this all seems like the exact whiney crap you seemed to be trying to avoid/preempt.

You remember we're still in beta right? There are no 'trends' yet. Nearly every patch we're seeing classes abilities tweaked.

I'm guessing nearly NOONE has been on any raids yet where they felt inferior to warrior X. Also, you realize there is ALOT more going on than just damage mitigation right? When was the last time you saw a warrior shadow step and then pull off 3 different life taps? (Yeah, warriors are prolly whining about that just like you are...)

My hunch is that if you were to ask all of the people considering DK's as their main, that almost to a man they'd say that they were really enjoying their character. Which is suppoed to be the point right?

Ultimately, if you're in a good guild it won't matter to them what class you are they'll find a way to get you in on the raids if it's what you want, so what are you worried about? That a PUG will take a warrior over a DK How many 26 man PUG's do you anticipate raiding with?

I suspect that the difference between a warriors few % points of dmg mitigation and our ability to life tap will offset enough that it will not be the overriding factor on whether or not you fulfill your role in a group, it'll come down to whether or not you're any good at your class. And if it's just Sk prejudices you're worried about, well then congrats you just helped to further the myth that somehow we are inferior.

We are still in Beta? Oh Em Gee! You also realize that the "Beta" is only days away from conclusion. The game is going Live on the 30th, (26th actually if you consider pre-order early start), not to mention the servers will be brought down before the 26th to do the final wipe and adjustments so they can bring up the live servers.

If no one is bringing up these things, how can they be changed. And I am sorry to burst your bubble but lifetaps are not nearly as significant as mitigation, they never have been and you know it. They are melee based or spell based which means resists, partial resists, and outright misses. You cannot count on a lifetap to save your life because it is fickle, especially against high level raid targets with stupid high evasion and resists. Mitigation is 100%, it is always there and the more you have of it, the better off you are. When was the last time in any other game, ever, did you hear the raid leaders deciding over who was going to MT? Do you hear questions like "Which one has the most HP/AC"? Or do you hear, "Well Joe does have the best AC and HP, but Johnny can Lifetap, and that should work a lot better"?

I know it sounds like the whining and crying I was so tired of hearing. I have already admitted that, so thanks for pointing it out again. This is going to be my final MMO, and I hate the fact that starting right out of the box we are seeing these kinds of difference. Believe me, I look forward to being proved wrong, I really do. But I can see the ignorance of the masses already, even in beta. I see some one shouting "Group LF Tank!" and I respond "Hey, I am a X level Dread Knight, can I come?" and on three separate occasions already I have heard, "Thanks but we are holding out for a Warrior." I have been in many more groups than I have been denied for, that is true... but in beta, to already see this kind of ignorance at work really pisses me off. I don't want that ignorance to be fueled by discrepancies like this.

AND! Even forgetting the raid aspect of it. Let us simply look at the logic behind it. At level 10 all the defensive fighters get a defensive stance... it makes sense. Every one but the Dread Knight gets to use their to their full potential right out of the box. Just on that alone, what is so effin special about the Dread Knight that they do not deserve the same mitigation on a uniform ability like our defensive stance?

Either way, I am done with the debate on it. I have stated my point on more than one occasion. If you cats want to sit back and be all optimistic about your class, then fine. But in a years time when the discrepancies start to pile up, I will be here to say "I told you so!"

[TeamSKKeris]

Xero,

First, let me say I agree with you. I am pretty sure the devs have told others that they are looking at the lower level abilities of DKs, but that we are low on the list right now. We are not as screwed as rogues, or druids, or many other classes that right now just plain suck.

Second, once you can reach DC5 do Dread Knights catch up in tanking? DC5 is achievable at level 40 (?) and of course the max is level 50. Xacies has said many times that getting to DC5 is quick and easy. Hell, we even have a one-click ability that brings us there automatically. While before level 40 we need looking at.. I doubt there is much raid content at that level. Plus if you hit your Word line of spells that is massive hate right off the bat (not sure if they are on the same timer, but if not then we could put out a s***-ton of damage early on in a fight especially at DC5).

Third, don't accept "no" for an answer on tanking for groups. I've tanked for a number of groups, and just like any other MMO you have to make a name for yourself and your class. In EQ, SKs couldn't tank raid mobs for crap until later in the game (or if you had our SKs which were probably the best group out of all the servers!), but they were AWESOME group tanks.

I think the problem with grouping right now is DKs have trouble holding aggro because offensive melee put out way too much damage and tend not to hold back or use ways to decrease their hate. While other games used the damage = hate to some extent, this game is bordering on having defensive tanks be useless at lower levels because of the damage output of other classes. You can offset this some by keeping your weapon the best for your level and keeping your DEX, STR, and INT as high as possible.

[Bloodrite]

We are still in Beta? Oh Em Gee! You also realize that the "Beta" is only days away from conclusion. The game is going Live on the 30th, (26th actually if you consider pre-order early start), not to mention the servers will be brought down before the 26th to do the final wipe and adjustments so they can bring up the live servers.

And.....what? What do you think, they'll just stop tweaking the classes after the game goes live? Quit acting like the sky is falling.

My issue isn't with you pointing out a discrepency, it's with you whining like a baby about it. There are constructive ways to bring things up, eh?

Here, let me help you out:

"Heya Class Lead...I noticed that the other two defensive fighter classes have slightly better dmg mitigation. While our's might be comparable at higher levels it seems like there may be a gap between us and them at lower levels. This may result in us not being able to MT quite as well and I'm concerned. Do you know if this is something that is being looked at? Do you feel that this may prove to be an issue for us in finding groups?".

Wow, that was easy and drama free. But then you wouldn't get to cry about how oppressed you've been feeling because some other games made you feel inferior and now you're being stereotyped.