Hanging up the crafting tools

[Ysharros]

I despise this sort of post, but I've been slowly simmering for a few weeks now and I guess the camel's back just broke. Warning - It's hostile. It's angry. I need to vent. I've kept quiet for weeks because I want to support the game and I want to support crafting. Right now, if you took crafting OUT of the game entirely I'd probably heave a sigh of relief. As it is I can't craft without feeling cheated *and* humiliated by a crafting system that appears to be out to get me, so to speak -- so I won't.

I'm not a weekend crafter; I've crafted in most games that supported it in the last, ugh, almost decade now. I don't expect something for nothing, or to be handed rewards for minimal effort. What I DO expect is something for something, and not just vendor trash. Certainly not vendor trash for weeks on end, after dozens (scores? hundreds?) of work order. The work order system wins - I give up.

In the spirit of providing the info Silius asked for, some details on the WOs I managed to do today before I logged in disgust. (I hadn't crafted in a week, hoping time would heal the irritation. Guess that didn't work out.)



Char : Yvriel (Thestran Human)
Prof : Leatherworker 27
Loc : Fisher's Pen

Nekkid Stats:

PS 228 / Reas 245 / Ing 227 / Fin 242

Refining 270 --- Station 174 / Tools 229 / Utils 245
Finishing (LW 268 / Outf 270) -- Station 172 / Tools 212 / Utils 257

Modified Stats:

PS 247 / Read 245 / Ing 239 / Fin 245

Refining 270 -- Station 244 / Tools 290 / Utils 261
Finishing -- Station 242 / Tools 273 / Utils 273

First off, the stats are as they are because I'm wearing what I could buy, quest or borrow, and ONE piece I got from a work order reward (a +33 tools shirt that's maybe level 15). This char was unlucky enough to start crafting pretty much at the time the reward nerf hit, and I have had maybe 4 items of clothing in the last 15 levels. This is all well and good on live servers where people can buy other people's castoffs, but on Test, it blows. I'm still wearing the level 20 vendor-bought gloves I got at level 11.

Yeah, sure, I could quest for more gear. If I weren't so utterly hacked off with crafting, maybe I would. Right now, I don't even want to think about it. I'm one of the people who grinds because I know there will be goodies in the bags -- working my backside off to get As on batches and getting a couple of snot-green mosses and a smarmy statue isn't reasonable, it's telling me not only am I grinding over, and over, and OVER, I'm doing it for nothing. Levels, sure. I'm not entirely motivated by that, sorry. Maybe that'll change. There are few enough "smaller carrots more often", to quote the long-forgotten Vanguard FAQ, and the crafting ones have been yanked away; nice going there.

Anyway. Work Orders.

1 -- Refining -- Batch -- Easy. Item 1 : 7 comps, C / Item 2 : 3 comps, B / Item 3 : 4 comps, B / Item 4 : 3 comps, B / Item 5 : 5 comps, B

2 -- Refining -- Single -- Moderate (mid). Item 1 : 6 comps, C

3 -- Refining -- Set -- Moderate (low). Item 1 : 4 comps, C / Item 2 : 2 comps, B / Item 3 : 3 comps, B

4. Finishing -- Single -- Moderate (low). Item 1 : 1 comp, B

5. Finishing -- Single -- Moderate (low). Item 1 : 6 comps. Ran out of AP. Was at a whopping 25% quality when I did.

6. Finishing -- Single -- Moderate (mid). Item 1 : 7 comps. Ran out of AP somewhere in D grade.

If it's my stats, then fine, I guess I'm just unlucky that I don't get anything to bolster those stats. If it's something else - I hope this proves useful. I'm past caring whether it's fixed or not. As far as I can tell, crafting consists of the following "choices" : gear up as much as you can, and then gear up some more (if you can't, you're just SOL, sorry); and suck it up, because the RNG has more effect on your crafting than anything YOU can do.

As I said, I despise this kind of post. But to take a devout and enthusiastic crafting addict (me) and end up with a bitter, disappointed and angry crafting hater (also me, right now) takes some work.

In an effort to be positive, I'd say, bring back some rewards. Whatever was tweaked I guess I didn't get to partake in it. I've crafted since the supposed tweak away from NO rewards to SOME rewards, and I'm not seeing it. Ah well, not quite -- I do have a cartload of tools. Hrmph.

I've done batches till I'm blue in the face and I have nothing to show for it. No recipes, no gear (not even something I could pass on to someone lower, for God's sake), and most of all absolutely no fun and no feeling of accomplishment. I don't level JUST to level - and right now, the journey isn't work taking.

[Florinda]

I don't know how to get the crafting devs attention on these issues. But crafting is seriously borked right now and it needs to be addressed.

Patch 1828 brought some changes to crafting that were, in my opinion, a disaster. I'm a lvl 35 mineralogist; after that patch I was getting up to 6 comps on lvl 14 recipes and I'm heavy on station use (station 390, tools 370, utils 360). If station use modulates comps, it wasn't working. People with aggressive builds and station use lower than tools and utils saw fewer complications. People with high station use upped their tool use and the comps settled down a *little*. That just wasn't right.

Patch 1834 was supposed to tweak some of this again. Despite the boost to tool effectiveness, I haven't personally seen a reduction in comps. I did a half dozen low level decons this morning and had 2-6 comps on each. Amateur decons are extremely trivial for me and I always use about the same number of the same actions, give or take a couple for variations in progress, and usually have over 500 AP left on 100% quality decon. For a lvl 35 crafter to *consistently* get up to 6 complications on a lvl 18 recipe (I think it's 18) means something isn't right.

Believe me when I tell you if these changes go live you'll hear the screams from orbit.

Ysh, I'm sorry to see you so frustrated. Try just taking a break from crafting and do some adventuring or diplo. It's very therapeutic. *hugs*

[TheKnight]

I've not seen much difference in the number of complications since I've started crafting. I'm only level 7 but I started months ago...

[Darkmoore]

I am so sad for you guys right now, because I have watched both Ysh and Flo get more and more frustrated. When I first started on Test, it was with my goblin Kliggen. I attempted to learn crafting, and Flo was one of the most patient and helpful people I had come across. Then along came Ysh also answering my noobish questions and I thought I was in heaven.

Then, along came the comps. Not just a couple here and there. They were huge. They were numerous. To put it in Star Trek perspective, they were Tribbles. Especially attempting to craft from recipes and not W.O.s. I can understand getting several comps the first time you do a recipe. Makes sense. But when you get the message "You have mastered this recipe" shouldn't that mean you MASTERED it? Not right now. So, I gave up and made Erricc.

Sigil, please. Listen to the justifiable complaints and make the needed adjustments. There is not a crafter out there who wants things handed to them. They just want the system to make sense. They want a sense of accomplishment for the work they put in. That's all.


I'm Erricc Bischoff and I approve this message.

[Florinda]

I kept a record of my complications during one session of making some quartz jewelry for a lowbie. Bear in mind these are tier 1 recipes being done by a tier 4 mineralogist: Basalt Block, Quartz Jewel, Brittle Stone Support, Qalian Quartz Jewelry x 2 (earrings), Kojani Quartz Jewelry x 3 (rings and necklace).

12 recipes
21 complications

Most complications on a recipe: 4 (one of the rings)

There is something very wrong when a system that is supposed to reduce complications on easier recipes increases them.

I moved some gear around to up my station use as high as possible.

Lvl 35 mineralogist
station use 420
tools 360
utils 360
using mainly reliable pyrite tools

Actual numbers.
5 recipes had 0 or 1 comps
7 recipes had 2-4 comps

Quartz Jewel 1: 2 comps
Quartz Jewel 2: 1 comp
Quartz Jewel 3: 1 comp
Quartz Jewel 4: 2 comps
Quartz Jewel 5: 3 comps

Basalt Block: 2 comps
Brittle Stone Support: 0 comps

Qalian Quartz Jewelry (earring): 1 comp
Qalian Quartz Jewelry (earring): 1 comp

Kojani Quartz Jewelry (ring): 2 comps
Kojani Quartz Jewelry (ring): 4 comps

Kojani Quartz Jewelry (necklace): 2 comps

This is a small sample size but I can tell you these results are typical. I will continue to keep records and post the results; I have 2 more batches of quartz jewelry to make and a couple batches of garnet jewelry to make. Those results soon.

[Dayemon]

You know, it's sad to hear high-level crafters "hanging up the tools" due to this recent patch. Personally, I have absolutely no desire to craft because it is such an eye bleeding repetitive task that takes far to long before getting your bag-o-trash. And that's ok that I hate it and it doesn't really matter what I think... BUT! I rely on you all to craft me my wares!

I could go on and on about what I would like crafting to be, and in the end, I'd just be another person with an opinion. I would hope however that [they] listen to what the crafters complaints are and adjust as necessary... or they're going to have to make all crafts yellow-rare due to people quitting crafting.

In the end, if they want to listen to my opinion, I like the EQ2 style of crafting -- Not "easy-mode" nor overly complex -- just plain old fun. Regardless of what is to become of crafting, I hope they change it soon! I need my Qualian T5 housing materials -- STAT!

Somber,
~Dayemon~
Thunderaxe Server

[Snowman]

It seems that Silius (Lead crafting dev) only replies to posts on Vanguardcrafters.com

Im only a noob crafter, dable with it every now and then. I was a 16 outfitter for the longest of times while I worked on my adventuring levels..

I was finally reduced to a gibering idiot when I decided I wanted level 18 outfiter so I can make cotton bags!!.. I spend ages getting from 16 to 17 but then I decided to use whatever time it took on sunday to get to level 18.

I started at 11am and didnt finally hit 18 until 10pm... 11 hours of hideous, ugly and tedious grinding of EASY work orders which I could never seem to get to A.

My rewards were pathetic!.. but at last I could craft cotton bags..

But there is an ugly twist to this story, I couldnt actually craft the cotton bags!.. every click got me only 6% progress!!.. Im short 500 AP EACH TIME!.. there was a +25 outfitter diplomacy buff in tursh and I maxed out my stats again... Still I could not make my bags! :/ why?... why?.. WHY? what the hell is the point in giving me a recipe that I cannot make! Why not give it me at 20 ?

Just to test it.. I tried making cotton shoes, recipe I had learnt at 16... I am still barly able to make them finished! - two levels later!!

After this I was so depressed that even going back to adventuring I just want to stop playing vanguard all together.

I have a level 28 Psio, after spending 4 hours last night I got nearly half of that level done.... why oh why does it take 11 hours to get from 17 - 18 outfitter???

Its seriously bad.. its enough to make anyone cry, is this the intention? is Silius just a sadist?

Im with you Ysharros, I think Crafting in VG is in desperate need of an NGE! thats how bad it is.