Boe?

[Astenniall]

Bind on Equip? No secondary market for crafted items anymore once someone wears them?

[Piala]

This was mentioned in a Post over at VanguardCrafters by Silius along with a few other things.

Silius Post

[Odball-1]

I hate this idea without reading anymore about it.

No surprise it's Silius again with his asinine ideas.

Same person behind Item Decay does it again.

If it had been in since launch I'd hate it less, but damn.

There is no purpose past making the trade skiller more cash, via removing the existing items from the market by default, thus creating more demand.

This is a travesty.

[Kirothak]

to the above post, trust me many crafters dislike this change, first off with the chage awhile back where we need 2 or 3 rares to upgrade most items dont sell anyway since comparable droped loot can be found on broker most of the time for the price of a single rare or less, and now our crafted stuff will be even less apealing since there is no resale value. so pay more for an item you can't resell? or pay less for a droped item equaly as good that can resell? so I ask you how is this going to "make the tradeskiller more cash"? please before making comments try to looks at things as a whole instead of just from your side, yahh I know us evil crafters are the downfall of mankind bleh bleh bleh ect ect but this change (along with countless others in past patches) is not really good for us.

with that said it may not be good for crafters, or adventures (though you can just by cheeper droped items anyway so what does it really matter?) but it is good for the game as a whole, droped items have an item sink (decon) and crafted did not... thats not good and needed to be fixed, so I see the why behind this change, but belive it could have been done better. like decon of crafted gear. but I accept it for the better good of the games economy.

[Riss]

Well yeah that's true I ordered a set of gear each tier collecting resources first and then having it made by a crafter, then when I am done wearing them I'd resell them to get some money to buy next tier gear for myself, now I will just buy other stuff cause I prefer not to bind my gear, and with this change I have no option. Well I do really and this option is to avoid buying crafted gear at all.

[Ysharros]

Odball - I'm not picking on you directly but your post exemplifies an attitude I find at best rather passive-aggressive and at worst downright hostile to the poor sods who work so hard to make these games.

Originally Posted by Odball-1

I hate this idea without reading anymore about it.

No surprise it's Silius again with his asinine ideas.

1. Hating without more information is, itself, pretty asinine.

2. Silius is also the chap who developed this rather innovative crafting system. It may have its flaws, but throwing around insults is cheap.

No, I don't necessarily agree with all the proposed changes, and yes, I do want significantly more information. But man, I am tireed of the endless persecution- and insult-complex we all seem to have.

Here's a secret, folks: the devs are not out to get you, and games companies DO NOT hire morons just so you can have something to feel superior about.

We spent weeks complaining on Vanguard Crafters that our stuff was being sold on for much less than it originally cost us to make, and that crafted goods never leaving the economy (let alone the rest but that's a separate issue) was resulting in a flood of second- and third-hand stuff so that we ended up having to compete with ourselves on prices we couldn't possibly match. These complaints were loud and numerous and mostly quite justified. Now they try to do something about it (even if it may seem heavy-handed to begin with) and all we do is blink, then start complaining about that too.

Yeah, that's fair.

EDIT - ok, so I myself wasn't as constructive as I'd like people do be. /slap

Hubby and I have been talking about this change since yesterday and I have some questions for the community here, since we are pretty good at debating stuff in a civilised manner.

Mainly, what do *we* think would help? I'm being a little vague because we have different ideas of what's wrong.

For me, for instance, if you say you want an "item-centric" game but items don't really *leave* said game, as is the case now, don't you just end up devaluing items in general? Deconstruction only takes out a very minor amount of stuff compared to what's flowing in. I don't have figures, so this could be wrong, but browsing the brokers it seems to me that there's a LOT more looted stuff coming in than there is crafted.

The BoE idea is clearly intended to help on several fronts, though how useful it will be is open to debate. My initial feeling is that crafted item sales are going to plummet, since people won't be able to recoup their investment by passing the gear on. In that sense, as it stands it seems to me the change will hurt more than it helps, certainly in the short term.

I think what bothers me the most isn't the changes that are made, but that we're not informed, at all, about how these changes may fit into the larger picture. I know that changes generally have to be made incrementally, especially since it seems various design teams share the efforts of a pool of coders who work for several teams - and you can't be doing 2 gig patches every week. This I understand.

What I don't understand is how BoE is intended to fit into "The Plan" - heck, I don't know what The Plan is anymore, and I think that causes a great deal of my discomfort. Having been in betas where "the plan" is usually discussed fairly openly (especially since testers are repeatedly told that plans are subject to change), including the Vanguard beta, I find the current lack of information bewildering. Sure, I know they plan to add high level content, better mounts, yadda yadda. But as regards crafting, the economy, and the issues many of us are dealing with on a daily basis, I know nothing. Being told that we will get more crafting quests is nice -- being given a clearer picture of how Sigil intends its economic model to work would be nicer.

At the moment, crafters are neither fish nor fowl. We're *not* needed. The items only crafters can make aren't mandatory - horseshoes, houses and boats are nice, but nobody *has* to have them. We don't compete effectively with drops, certainly not in quantity and doubtfully on quality.

If crafted items such as armor are going to be made "better" than their equivalent loot drops, as a palliative to being BoE, will that actually help? Given that two thirds of players *don't* soulbind their gear (at least judging from the very small data sample we have on the poll here), is the BoE thing going to work for them? I expect more of them will just concentrate on buying looted stuff.

So... if then everything we loot is made BoE or BoP, what will *that* do to the economy?

Yeurgh, too early. Brane hurts. Amazing how one small push can create such a stir. I may disagree with how some express their misgivings, but sadly I share the sentiment behind it.

[Riss]

Well at least make Rare, Heroic and Legandary crafted items not BOE. They are hard enough to find even now - and when they become 1 time use they will be impossible to obtain. To make a T4 rare piece of armor take 2 rares now and you cant even sell it now?? Come on!

I have no idea who has an overflown market of crafted items but I just checked Varking server there are 4 Superior crafted items above lvl 35 on Tesra and about 6 on Qualia. This is not even close to overflow to me. It is hard already to find a T4 crafter on our server well i guess there will not be any T5 ones after this. I do not know why developers hate crafting and want to destroy it so much - but they are slowly but steadily doing it.

[Riss]

Also to add some statistics there are currently only 15 (FIFTEEN!!!!) T4 (39+) crafters on our server (Varking).

Do you think they can provide the needs of 899 current T4 gear users on our server??? even working 24/7??? LMAO. At least you could get some gear on the second hand hand market before - now you have no chance lol.

Do you think there is something wrong with this picture 15 vs 899 ?
Anyone?


In order to save the situation you have to make the crafted gear more attractive - noone wants to gring for HOURS just to be able to make some gear that gets only nerfs. Stop nerfing crafted gear and you will get more people crafting. I'm sure after this BOE crap noone will even bother to level to T5.

Why BOE heroic crafted gear anyway's i't rare enought already ... jesus..

[Naiya]

I've got a problem. I don't like the idea - I really don't.

I think if the crafted gear goes back to being on par or better than drops then we have the people who start saying "Where is a crafter when I need one?" and "What do you mean you won't make <enter equip here for me>? you're a crafter aren't you? you leveled to that so you have an obligation to make it!"

At the same time - you have those who say "Well those moneygrubbing merchants will never be happy! now I have no choice but to seek them out every time I want crafted gear and it's not like I can sell the stuff!!"

and then there are the devs saying "We're listening and trying to help. Try it and let us know what is going on"

My problem is, I don't like what's been introduced, but I cannot offer an intelligent alternative. I mean, exactly how to you handle the glutting of the market in such a way that the crafters don't feel like they are worked like dogs to create every time they log in and still make it worth while to be a crafter?

[Ysharros]

Originally Posted by Naiya

My problem is, I don't like what's been introduced, but I cannot offer an intelligent alternative. I mean, exactly how to you handle the glutting of the market in such a way that the crafters don't feel like they are worked like dogs to create every time they log in and still make it worth while to be a crafter?

That's the $64k question, isn't it. I've debated it for hours with people I know and we sure haven't come up with a magic bullet. My comparisons with SWG only hold until you remember SWG had factories which, given the almost 100% player-made nature of gear, was essential. They don't really fit in to Vanguard's paradigm though, which means if I wanted to make 20 sets of armor to sell, I'd have to refine 20 stacks of [insert material], another 20 stacks of secondary material, and then spend 20 iterations x 9 armor pieces of time to make them. I love, love crafting but... GAH! I think that would drive me nuts.

And as Riss pointed out above, that would still only be 20 sets I'd worked myself to the bone for (not even counting the harvesting time). With crafters still well outnumbered by adventurers of equal level (I'm assuming here but I think that's a pretty safe assumption) you'd end up with weary crafters, pissed-off adventurers, or both.

I also think there are several issues at play here. One, for me, is the insane amount of looted stuff on the market. If there were no crafters, this would be a good thing. Since there *are* crafters, and our stuff just about competes, it's like telling people to buy at Gucci when they can get a knockoff elsewhere for a third of the price - most people won't.

Decay is another issue. Currently I think it's pretty half-assed -- either give us a system with teeth, where stuff *really* ends up breaking and leaving the world, or take it out. Right now it's nothing more than a pocket-money sink and an irritation, for the most part.

Course it's easy for me to sit here and be an armchair dev. Not so easy to balance the dozens of small, medium and large systems all of whom hook into each other in various ways. Nudge here, and a tornado hits Lomshir - or something.