Boe?

[Piala]

If you think there is no discussion about this check this out:

VanguardCrafters Forum Thread

[SwordMage]

Originally Posted by Iendan

i got an idea, lets get rid of Binding/item decay, i dont like them, i dont see any point besides taking lotsa items out of the economy which will drive up prices and make crafted items less appealing...as for item decay, it just gets to realistic for my tastes but thats not what this thread is about so ill just stop...

This is exactly the problem. If prices for crafted goods go through the floor along with the prices of dropped goods that never go away, crafters will leave the market (they can level without ever making product). We saw this happening in EQ2 early on (before they added this BoE mechanism for crafted and dropped stuff).

It is very easy as an adventurer to want a market that keeps prices down; I know when I have my adventurer hat on, I love to find stuff on the market at depressed prices. The problem is that without the ability to make money by selling into the market, there is no real incentive for crafters to make the good stuff at all (who wants to spend 2 hours making a set of armor that doesn't sell for more than the vendor sellback price) or to even remain in VG (no crafters, no boats or houses).

[Iendan]

if prices go down then people stop crafting (sellable goods)
if people stop crafting then prices go up
if prices go up then people start crafting (sellable goods)
if people start crafting then prices go down
see beginning...

even if crafted items dont leave the market thru binding they still leave the market through them not being worth selling on the brokers (up vendor prices pls ) people continuing to use them, people leaving and not clearing their char (sad but true ) it seems likely that low level crafting stuff will not sell for much...but that will always be true there are lotsa low level crafters, there always will be and they make alot of stuff but as you go up in levels there are less crafters, ppl stay with their gear longer, and resources are harder to get. also, it seems to me that if crafters dont want to sell their gear on the broker they arnt gonna run outta money (money from WO's) anyway so it hardly hurts the crafters.

as a adv/crafter, IMO the cons of soulbinding (inability to give stuff to noobs(used stuff that is), both alts and true noobs, price increases, which is not always good for crafters, etc) out weigh the pros (increased price can increase profit but may not if demand goes down cause prices are too high)

[Syanis]

Originally Posted by Iendan

if prices go down then people stop crafting (sellable goods)
if people stop crafting then prices go up
if prices go up then people start crafting (sellable goods)
if people start crafting then prices go down
see beginning...

even if crafted items dont leave the market thru binding they still leave the market through them not being worth selling on the brokers (up vendor prices pls ) people continuing to use them, people leaving and not clearing their char (sad but true ) it seems likely that low level crafting stuff will not sell for much...but that will always be true there are lotsa low level crafters, there always will be and they make alot of stuff but as you go up in levels there are less crafters, ppl stay with their gear longer, and resources are harder to get. also, it seems to me that if crafters dont want to sell their gear on the broker they arnt gonna run outta money (money from WO's) anyway so it hardly hurts the crafters.

as a adv/crafter, IMO the cons of soulbinding (inability to give stuff to noobs(used stuff that is), both alts and true noobs, price increases, which is not always good for crafters, etc) out weigh the pros (increased price can increase profit but may not if demand goes down cause prices are too high)

I have to somewhat disagree with the above person.

1. If people stop crafting the prices even more so go down. This is why. Adventuring drop/quested are equal to crafted and easier to obtain (sometimes better then crafted). Many Many dropped items are eaten by crafters for decon purposes, those dusts and rares on a crafted don't just appear after all. Right now crafters eat pretty much any T4 drop uncommon thats 10sp and lower and any rare T4 thats 1gp or lower. This keeps the main market at 1gp+ for T4 rares that are dropped while the crap becomes lower in cost. However if crafters stop crafting the crap rares stay there and overall lower the prices of rares on the broker because of many adventurers considering this free gear and wanting a quick sale.

2. If Prices on drops go up crafted goods prices go up because currently you need to eat say 3-4 rares to make 1 rare crafted item (T4/5 as a base of talk). This can be corrected by crafted items not taking multiple rares anymore and making heroic dusts easier to get or bumping those down in rarity to rare maybe.

3. If people start crafting the prices on drops stay even while the prices on crafted goods stay were they have been which is at breaking even or a slight profit unless you get lucky and get all the parts from doing WO's (considering in a tier you'd see 3-4 URs and 7-8 rares from WO's). Crafted items with how its currently setup can't go any cheaper w/o being a loss or hurting any chance of other crafters later making any sort of a profit.

All items need to have a way to be taken off the market both crafted and non crafted. However with the current setup deconning is the crafters main way of achieving what he/she needs to craft. Hense a strictly BoE system doesn't work well. But a system that has a perm decay to destruction (like DAoCs maybe) or a tagged on equip system where only the person the item is tagged for can wear but can still trade for decon purposes would be a better solution to removing items from the game. This would also help crafters a bit because tagged and no longer used items would be sold alot cheaper then the same item not tagged helping keep crafted items closer in cost to a drop on the broker.

However the main issue is still very basic. Adventuring aquired rares/heroics and even legendaries are far to common and easy to obtain to an adventurer vs the cost of buying crafted gear thats equal or slightly less. And yes crafted items are lesser because our items aren't tweaked for those likely to use them while drop/quested are usually tweaked to be the best for the class who can use.

[Greydog]

Originally Posted by Piala

If you think there is no discussion about this check this out:

VanguardCrafters Forum Thread

I'f you've actually read the thread you will have noted my activity there already

[Piala]

Originally Posted by Greydog

I'f you've actually read the thread you will have noted my activity there already

I have noted that you are trying to keep the fires burning on two fronts.

[SwordMage]

Originally Posted by Iendan

if prices go down then people stop crafting (sellable goods)
if people stop crafting then prices go up
if prices go up then people start crafting (sellable goods)
if people start crafting then prices go down
see beginning...

...)

My point is that without crafted items leaving the game in one way or another, your second step breaks down. If there is a glut of items already made and in the economy when crafters stop crafting, the prices don't go up (between the crafted items that stay and the dropped items no longer consumed by crafters, the market will remain flooded).

It would be like having washing machines that never break down and need to be replaced. Once every family has one, no one will ever buy one again (with zero population growth and no technological improvements--the stable state on most servers that have been around for a while--they just get handed down).

[Mustang68]

Bind on Equip is wholly unnecessary here. Yes, people have pointed out some of the reasons why already (lack of crafters compared to adventurers being one big one), but the most significant reason why is that crafters do NOT get experience more than once for making an items for player characters. Therefore, there is already a mechanism in place for LIMITING the amount of crafted goods that will enter the economy.

And, as others have stated, as it stands now you can't even find a set of armor of the kind you want on the broker (and if you go to a broker currently, you will not find prices falling), simply because crafters aren't making them to sell on vendors. Think about it - any crafter worth his or her salt will be in a guild. Most of the non-experience gaining time crafting will be used making items for guild-mates with the occasional items that sell well to put on the broker. The majority of the items that DO sell are not your typical weapons and armor related items anyway. As has been mentioned above, bags, horseshoes, items for use in making houses, etc., are typically the items that sell well. Other equippable adventuring gear typically sits on the broker for a LONG time, as adventurers typically will just use dropped loot or have a guld crafter make them items.

I don't see ANY reason why BOE will have any beneficial effect at this point. The end result, if it is implemented as stated, will be that adventurers will not think about any rare adventuring gear until they reach the level 50 cap, and only then to fill slots that are not filled with quested loot or drops. When it comes down to it, crafters in the long run typically become equipment makers for the many alts that abound in the game.

[Mustang68]

Originally Posted by SwordMage

My point is that without crafted items leaving the game in one way or another, your second step breaks down. If there is a glut of items already made and in the economy when crafters stop crafting, the prices don't go up (between the crafted items that stay and the dropped items no longer consumed by crafters, the market will remain flooded).

It would be like having washing machines that never break down and need to be replaced. Once every family has one, no one will ever buy one again (with zero population growth and no technological improvements--the stable state on most servers that have been around for a while--they just get handed down).

See, the problem is that you are taking a real-world economic example and trying to force it on this game's own economic model. Yes, the basic examples of supply and demand exist, but the game has created artificial rules that cause the economy to behave in ways that do not mimic the real world. One of those being that crafters ONLY gain experience for the first time they craft an item. Another is the lack of crafters compared to adventurers, across all levels. And, on top of that, weapons and armor, the typical BOE victims, do not really sell well due to other economic issues (I've noted some of them above, and I'll add lack of rares here as well and reiterate that they have a lack of parity with loot and quest rewards). So, I think Sigil would need to address some of the other issues first before implementing any BOE design.

First and foremost, if crafting was actually fun, and the number of crafters increased, and they got experience every time they made an item for adventurers (like EQ2), I could see BOE being a potential solution.

[Riss]

Exactly my point, thank you.

For those who thinks that they are fixing something with this BOE - go and try to buy yourself a set of T3-T4 gear on broker (not talking about T5 because we dont even have T5 crafters on our server Varking yet) there is an enormous lack of crafted items on broker atm due to the fact that crafters only make few items of any given tier and the only way you can buy them is when crafter's friend who was wearing the stuff is selling it on the market. Even if you have the cash and resources it is VERY hard to find a crafter who will assemble T4+ stuff for you.

IF you do BOE at least make the new crafted items BOE - leave this small pool of crafted items that people can lend to each other. I choose not to bind my stuff becase I can always trade a certain piece to my guildie to see how this and that works, to try different setups with stats/resists, why do you have to always take freedoms and fun out I fail to understand why is BOE on crafted stuff so necessary - never throughout many forums I saw a sane and valid argument in favor of BOE.