3x Crafting Weekend shows an apparent problem with the system

[Aen]

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[Kenelm]

I think it all comes down to Sigils philosophy of not wanting to flood the brokers with crafting exp ground items.

[Venti]

Originally Posted by Kenelm

I think it all comes down to Sigils philosophy of not wanting to flood the brokers with crafting exp ground items.

That wouldn't be too much of a problem if they kept the quests about T2.

[kristian]

more quests that's all i have to say.. for every 10 adv quest there is 1 crafting.. not fair if it's all the same

[Florinda]

The solution to all this is to bump up the crafting exp and leave it there. Even permanent 2xp would be a big help. That way the crafters won't feel driven to do nothing but work orders and won't begrudge time making items for other players.

That said, and I hesitate to say this because I hate making myself a target, but I think the non-crafters need to cut the crafters a little slack. If we announce a crafting ding in a public channel, there's a chorus of make-me-this, make-me-that; it feels like a feeding frenzy and the unfortunate crafter is the chum. The low number of crafters means we can't possibly make everything that everybody wants without spending way too much playtime doing that and nothing else. And certainly not for free! The items with nice bonuses require dusts that cost several silver each (not per stack, *each*). So please be considerate, offer to pay for or provide the expensive components, and if the gimmes are just in jest, please consider typing in a "gratz!" instead.

[Ysharros]

Originally Posted by Florinda

That said, and I hesitate to say this because I hate making myself a target, but I think the non-crafters need to cut the crafters a little slack. If we announce a crafting ding in a public channel, there's a chorus of make-me-this, make-me-that; it feels like a feeding frenzy and the unfortunate crafter is the chum. The low number of crafters means we can't possibly make everything that everybody wants without spending way too much playtime doing that and nothing else. And certainly not for free! The items with nice bonuses require dusts that cost several silver each (not per stack, *each*). So please be considerate, offer to pay for or provide the expensive components, and if the gimmes are just in jest, please consider not typing them in.

QFE -- seriously, the amount of supposedly "amusing" ribbing, poking and prodding of the crafters I saw over the x3 weekend was enough to make me wonder whether even on test, crafters are seen as nothing but make-me click-monkeys. It's only a small subset of people (and always the *same* people) but jeez, after the third repetition of "Aren't you 30 yet? So you can make me {insert item}? hehe only joking really" it got kinda old. Even if it is meant in jest, it's in dubious taste when it's done so often the crafters in question feel massively pressured - and several did, from the conversations I had.

Test communities ARE cooperative, they ARE small and friendly, and they ARE helpful. That doesn't mean crafters should get taken advantage of, and I saw what looked like a fair amount of that the other day. And *then* people come here and get testy that the crafters wouldn't make them anything during the weekend.

As to the OP... I'm not sure I"d want crafting xp permanently raised because I think that's a bandaid for a system that has other flaws. I've been an ardent supporter of the crafting innovation brought to Vanguard, but in play certain flaws are becoming more evident that, as far as I can tell, we're pretty much stuck with. Work orders and nothing *but* work orders gets really, really old, and increasing the xp rate just lessens the pain by making the tedium a little less lengthy. Course if that's how it's going to be, then I guess I'm all for more crafting xp.

[Vyvian]

Originally Posted by Venti

Its just like EQ2 you only get exp for making the first try then after that no more exp. All exp in Vanguard crafting comes from quests and WOs.

Although it would be nice to always get exp from items you wouldn't get your crafting gear that oyu would normally get from grinding WOs. Also if I remember right you get a major exp boost from the first item craft not like the little exp you get from making a WO item.

Unless it changed, you are incorrect about the crafting experience in EQ2. I was a craft-addict in EQ2 and I can tell you, you get experience for every item you craft as long as it's not grey to you. The first pristine you would make would give you bonus experience, and the rest just the "normal" experience for crafting an item.

I do agree that the crafting experience in Vanguard is terrible. Unless I want to push out D quality items on yellow WO's just to grind, your experience just doesn't move at a recognizable pace. There needs to be some sort of gain from crafting items other than from WO's or quests.

Those stating that this would cause a flood in the market for miscellaneous items made by crafters, need I remind you, you only get 10 slots to sell items on the Broker? Yeah, I believe people wont waste their space with worthless things.

Edited for grammar... yeah, it may still be bad though.

[Florinda]

This situation is getting out of hand.

The people crying "Gimme!" are now insulting the crafters for not putting out, as if the only reason for taking up crafting is to make whatever anybody asks for, spending our own time, money and hard-won dusts and powders for the privilege of making them free stuff, while they're off adventuring. "I'll just keep advancing my own toon while you sit there spending large amounts of time, money and material doing things that don't advance yours!"

If the crafters HAVE to make items for the non-crafters in order to avoid insults and petulant behavior, that's unacceptable.

Some people don't mind offering their skills as a public service. I'm not one of them. I'm crafting on Test to test crafting. I also craft because I want to be able to make items for myself and my friends. If you want me to make you stuff, I suggest you become my friend. Insulting me in a public channel will get you nothing. There are now a couple of people who are unlikely to ever get anything out of me unless they stop treating me like a public vending machine and start treating me with the respect due a real human being.

If announcing crafting accomplishments in the public channel is equivalent to a public service announcement, so be it. I simply won't. Anybody who wants to know my crafting level will just have to send me a tell. And as annoyed as I am right now, unless you're a friend, I probably won't tell you.

[Ysharros]

Doh. I started more drama than I intended. Sorry Flo. *comfort*

I purposely didn't come and post here because I was upset, and that's no way to post on any forum. I don't like confrontations either, but over the years my tolerance to being told what to do as a crafter, how to play, what to make, and who to make it for has dropped to zero. It was bad in SWG, it was getting bad in EQ2, and I guess it's back in Vanguard. Aside from any other effects it had, the 3x XP weekend seems to have ramped up the hate for crafters alongside the impression some players have that those who choose to craft have also chosen to volunteer their time, skills, efforts and enjoyment to the rest of the community at any time, whatever they may personally want, or whatever else they might be doing at the time. How is that fair, or respectful?

Just as a person playing a tank is not expected to join any group that's offered or provide services just because someone is in need of them, a crafter is under no obligation whatsoever to make anything for anyone if they don't want to. Sure, most of us play crafters because we love to make stuff for people - but you know what? When it becomes a matter of entitlement and pressure ("You're a crafter so you MUST make me this and if you don't you're clearly selfish and a detriment to the community) my contrary gene kicks in and I dig in my heels.

Not many people expect adventurers to play a certain way or be at anyone else's beck and call. Why are crafters expected to be assemble monkeys? I, for one, craft for the enjoyment of it *and* because I like to build businesses in games. I expect to be fairly compensated for my efforts, even if that's only the thanks and enjoyment of my friends when I make them something they really like. I expect to be treated reasonably and not to be taken for granted just because I make stuff.

Pretty much what any player has a right to expect, in my opinion. Crafter, diplomat, adventurer - doesn't matter. We all pay to play, and how we choose to spend the time *we* are paying for is really nobody else's business. If I don't want to make something for someone despite being a crafter, that's the same as a cleric refusing a group for a given dungeon -- they refuse, the inviter shrugs, finds another person to ask, and moves on. Not rocket science.

Time for the straps again, my knees are jerking. I've been taken for granted as a crafter in games for so long -- from being insulted the second I log in because I wasn't there when someone needed something, to being insulted because I charge for my goods that "cost me nothing" to make, to being deluged in tells from people who think I will drop whatever I am doing, instantly, and pull fully-formed starships out of my backside.. you get the picture. I'm tired of it, and I over-react when I perceive it in games now. My apologies to the person I was short with -- I started out defensive and got aggressive and there was no call for that.

My basic point, however, remains. Show crafters some respect and maybe you'll find you don't know what to do with all the items you get. Take them for granted and you'll find they're mysteriously AFK whenever you need something.

[Lilith]

As much as I hate to disagree, I do.

This server is plagued by a small playerbase. That means that in order for it to be successful, it must run in a somewhat socialistic setting. Every player is under an obligation, explicit or not, to help the rest of the players out if they need it.

People who plays tanks are expected to tank for groups if they're needed. DPS classes are expected to dish out DPS, healers are expected to heal. If players do not do this, then the ability to test content becomes very limited.

For example, if people are asking for a tank so they can run a dungeon, then yes, the tanks online do have an obligation to go. It's in the greater good of the server. The same goes for if a group needs some DPS or healing.

Likewise, crafters are expected to craft items for adventer types so that they can more effeciently test out adventuer content AS WELL AS crafted items in the adventurer sphere. And the same goes for items in the crafting sphere. By having crafters who refuse to craft items for other players, no matter the reason, they are doing a great disservice to this server.

No one is saying crafters have to make items for free, or on a whim, but there is an obligation given this servers dynamics and demographics to craft items for other players.

Just like every adventurer class has an obligation to adventure.




People need to stop acting like this is just another server with faster rates and dev interaction. If you don't want to put the server first and yourself last, you need to not be here. Things will not get tested when people start taking the attitudes of "I'm just here for my own personal enjoyment and I won't do anything I don't want to do."

Get us another 200 people online at any given time and you can act however you want, but for now, things have to be socialistic. And that means crafters ARE under an obligation to craft items.