Crafting Mafia

[Shinto]

Tekken, 5-10s on a 1g items isn't really undercutting. Right now I sell my superior tin weapons for less than the exchange prices (and far less than yours) because I get the materials cheaply. Striking dust adds to the cost, of course, but not significantly. The weapon I named, Superior Shortsword of Striking, typically costs me 25s-30s in material, plus the time it takes to get everything. Since I get my mats significantly cheaper than you get yours, it makes sense that I charge less, despite a higher margin.

Originally Posted by Denidil Taureran

clearly your expectations are completely in contradiction with the expectations of all the MMO players i associate with

the ones i associate with fly the "BAN THE **** BASTARDS" flag

Banning is reserved for conduct that violates the TOS in some way. No where did I sign anything that said that I can't overcharge or undercut. Yours is a very extreme position, and while you do have the right to hold that opinion, I would never play a game that bans people for playing economics on the dark side.

[Denidil Taureran]

Originally Posted by Shinto

Banning is reserved for conduct that violates the TOS in some way. No where did I sign anything that said that I can't overcharge or undercut. Yours is a very extreme position, and while you do have the right to hold that opinion, I would never play a game that bans people for playing economics on the dark side.

ooo i love it when people claim "your position is an extreme one" when i'm merely asserting implicit rules that most people adhere to, but a loud minority does not.

yup it's "Extreme" to expect people to behave ethically, and most of the rest of the adventurers i know are the same way.

I expect nothing less from a game than banning racketeering bastards, and much of the rest of the adventurers i know are the same way.

[Shinto]

Originally Posted by Denidil Taureran

ooo i love it when people claim "your position is an extreme one" when i'm merely asserting implicit rules that most people adhere to, but a loud minority does not.

yup it's "Extreme" to expect people to behave ethically, and most of the rest of the adventurers i know are the same way.

I expect nothing less from a game than banning racketeering bastards, and much of the rest of the adventurers i know are the same way.

Now you are just twisting my words. I don't consider it extreme to be against unethical behavior. I do consider it extreme to ban anyone who overprices in-game items. Shall we also ban players who play evil characters? How about those on the pvp servers who kill people for no reason? While we are at it, let's ban those guys that sneak into a dungeon behind us and grab the boss. While any of these could be considered "unethical", none are ban-worthy.

[Denidil Taureran]

Originally Posted by Shinto

I do consider it extreme to ban anyone who overprices
in-game items.

then it's a good thing that i didn't propose that and you simply cannot read well.

(rest of your reply snipped because it rests on the faulty assumption)

i was talking about banning people engaged in price fixing.

[Hitomi]

Originally Posted by Denidil Taureran

clearly your expectations are completely in contradiction with the expectations of all the MMO players i associate with

the ones i associate with fly the "BAN THE ******* BASTARDS" flag

Originally Posted by Denidil Taureran

then it's a good thing that i didn't propose that and you simply cannot read well.

(rest of your reply snipped because it rests on the faulty assumption)

i was talking about banning people engaged in price fixing.

Originally Posted by Denidil Taureran

ooo i love it when people claim "your position is an extreme one" when i'm merely asserting implicit rules that most people adhere to, but a loud minority does not.

yup it's "Extreme" to expect people to behave ethically, and most of the rest of the adventurers i know are the same way.

I expect nothing less from a game than banning racketeering bastards, and much of the rest of the adventurers i know are the same way.

The problem that exists here is that you're still bringing real world attitudes and such into a fantasy (virtual) world.

While I wouldn't exactly label it extreme for you to expect that people will act ethically, I would definitely say that it's an unrealistic expectation. As I stated before, it's a fantasy and some people engage in this fantasy specifically to act out things that they can't (or won't) do in real life.

Just because you share your expectation with others and they agree to them doesn't make them some sort of implicit law that people should follow. Just because these laws might exist in reality doesn't make them implicit laws in a fantasy realm either.

As long as you continue to believe that things in a virtual world should adhere to the realities of the physical world you will continue to be disappointed, angered and frustrated.

Terms such as "price fixing" don't exist in VG, or in any other MMO. The economy in the game is truly driven by the players and it is not governed by a federal body with laws in place to prevent monopolistic regimes. Nor is it governed by a set of presupposed standards and morals. So expecting it to be as such will only serve to fail that expectation.

All of this is completely moot though. One of two things will happen:

1) The people colluding to determine prices will continue to do so because people are buying their wares. Thus the supply is meeting the demand of the market because of their own free will, consumers are paying for the product. The market will stabilize around these prices and it will be the normal market trend. Life goes on.

2) People don't buy the product which the people colluding to determine prices on and eventually when their scheme doesn't work they'll give it up or lower the amount. Again, then the supply will start meeting the demand and the market will stabilize and it will be the normal market trend. Life goes on.

I know you won't like to hear this, but it is the unfortunate truth. There is nothing in this game that you NEED. Need is defined by being necessary for your survival. In our consumer driven world 'need' is used interchangeably with 'want'. "Oh, I need that CD!" or "I need $20 to go to the movies!"

These are not accurate statements. You NEED water to survive. You NEED food. You may think I'm splitting hairs but I'm not. If there is something on the market that you WANT very badly, that doesn't make it a necessity. It simply determines how much value you place on it. Obviously if you want it bad enough to pay the price for it, then that's it. That's how much it's worth. Nothing else plays a part in it. Everything else is just rationalization. "Well, the price fixed it so I can't buy that sword for less than 4g." They may have... but if you buy the sword then it's worth 4g. You can choose to not buy the sword at all and continue on without it. "But I NEED it. If I don't get it I can't progress!" Yes you can. What if the sword wasn't for sale at all? Could you progress then? Yes. Would your character or yourself fall over dead? No. So therefore it is not a necessity.

As all these arguments invariably do, it falls back to personal responsibility. You're ticked that an item costs a lot more than others are selling it for or how much you feel it's worth and so you want to complain and moan about it. Fine, but it changes nothing. Your choices still remain. You can buy it for what it's being sold for or not. If enough people don't buy it, it'll become cheaper. If enough people do buy it then it'll become more expensive. That is how it works regardless of anything else.

Any expectation otherwise is simply designed inherently to fail. So the trick is to change your expectations and start having expectations that are realistic to the world that you're involved in.

[Uln'Xeresy]

I will always be against Game Intervention from the outside, if a mafia happens, "oh well!" things that form in game, can be worked with, ingnored, or fixed in game. not from the outside... it is not sigils job.

[Dread Quixadhal]

Coming from EVE-Online, I have no problem with folks trying to corner the market. It usually doesn't work for very long, unless they can control access to rare resources. This game doesn't appear to spawn rare resources in fixed locations, and unless it's also a huge farming guild (which may be banned for other reasons), they aren't likely to be able to pin down all the nodes of a given resource 23/7.

As for undercutting the market.... once I get into crafting (altaholic... have to settle on a main first), I'll undercut until and unless approached by a crafting guild who'd like me to set my prices higher in exchange for compensation on mats and consumables (so I can afford to have them sit unsold for a while).

Price fixing may be (currently) illegal in (parts of) the real world... but that's because we have a twisted view of what the term "free market" actually means. Market forces and a drop in demand normally take care of price fixing on their own, but people panic and don't like to wait. There's also enough disposable income so that people CAN still buy overpriced goods, even though they grumble about it.

Petrol is a good example. The prices in a local area tend to all fluctuate within hours of each other, because the petroleum companies dictate what gas station chains can charge (via controlling the supply). When prices jump due to speculation in the news, people complain but still pay because they are able to do so. If it really did become unaffordable, more people would use mass transit or alternate energy, even if they didn't want to do so.

[Fraya]

Pure capitalism works about as well as pure communism.

Which is not at all.

Both are required for a healthy economic system its mearly a matter of how much of each you want to use to season to your tastes.

In any case when it comes to any markets virtual or real price fixing and monopolies only work in cases where the barriers to entry are extremely high.

As for someone elses idea to buy all of an item and mark them up that also only works when the item is rare and very difficult to obtain.

I had someone try that with a secondary crafting item I was placing on broker for sale. I had undercut the market so they bought them up, doubled the price and put them back on the broker.

So I took my profits, bought materials and made more for sale.

Those were also immediately bought.

I rinsed and repeated this for about 5 gold or so till they finally realized how long it was going to take them to sell all those items.

So I made 5 gold in an afternoon and they will spend a month selling secondary components to make their 10 gold.

[Shinto]

Originally Posted by Denidil Taureran

then it's a good thing that i didn't propose that and you simply cannot read well.

(rest of your reply snipped because it rests on the faulty assumption)

i was talking about banning people engaged in price fixing.

None of my post was based on a faulty assumption, nor was anything following the part that you quoted based on that quote. I'm sorry for assuming that you would read my post in context.

Not that it matters. There is no official rule against price fixing, and there is no government in-game to enforce such a rule. Even if there were, it would not be a ban-worthy offense. Yes, it is illegal in real life, but we don't ban people from life for this sort of offense.

It is obvious, though, that no matter the counter-argument, you will retain your position. I personally won't advocate banning for any crime that doesn't affect the functionality or balance of the game. There is room in a game like this even for evil characters, so why not for racketeers and price fixers?

[Ginfress]

Playing the market is fun. Find low priced items and sell them at a common price. Some people foam about it and send me nice tells (well in eq2 they did, vanguard has as far i notice a more mature crowd). My answer back is "If i put something up at a price it sells as hotcakes there is nothing wrong with my price" It's not my problem when someone puts stuff on the market for 4s and i can sell it in the same amount of time at 10s. Learn to understand the market.

Most undercutters are wise enough not to go too low but there are always sturborn people who want to serve their server with very low prices without thinking about the consequences. So yeah i buy up your stuff and resell it. In the end it's a gamble on my side. If i misjudged the market i am stuck with carbage and simply cut my loss but so far in all my games i end up with enough money to support two accounts fully without having to sweat at all.