I always try to look at things at a slightly different angle than most. This week, it is no different as I witnessed some of the most brutal debate in a long time. The two major themes were PvP vs PvE and Casual vs Hardcore. Am I the only one who is astonished over the ferocity of the debates? ...

I so totally disagree with that definition of "casual!" I consider myself a casual gamer!! You can be committed to something and not have to physically be there 24/7! Or even 8/7! I had many very commited individuals in our guild who could give no more than a few hours a week, but when they were there, they were THERE! And they checked the boards, gave input...all the things many who were there every waking hour wouldn't do!

I also disagree that every degree of raiding should always have loot associated with it, but then, I've always been wierd! This attitude, tho, has spoiled the mentality of raiding/grouping and the games development. I'd much rather see us go back to the Seb style where you might all get rich off of VT or gems, but not all raids had uber rewards. We were there for the fun and maybe some much needed cash for crafting or buying from crafters. Those where days when games were fun, tho...not loot-driven farmers/raiders messing up the economy and attitudes.

So, yeah...I'm one of the originals and very wierd! I like to enjoy the people I'm with and raid/group for the fun and for learning more about my, and the other's, classes! I hope to pete they have a way of turning VSoH back to that way of game life!!

Ok, i like the tone of your spiel, and i think its fairly well argued... but i gotta spit my bit...

you start with casual vs. hardcore, and IMMEDIATELY equate that with raiding vs grouping... I feel that this is a bad trend in mmo's and it makes no sense to me. I would equate casual vs hardcore as being a matter of time invested, and the focus of that time.
You go on to say that raiding is more difficult and should result in better rewards... well i agree, the potential for error of something involving 56 ppl is much greater then that of one with 6 ppl but thats just one way of looking at "difficulty" .

What i'm getting at is that i believe loot should be based on difficulty, and that group encounters can be made just as difficult as raid encounters. Your little "math" bit about how the larger the group the harder it is not true imo. I think that a grp encounter requiring good reflexes/anticipation and discipline from all 6 ppl with no room for error and little leeway in delay of actions deserves the same quality as one that requires that much from 56, because the effort/skill is the same from the individuals in both cases.

Now, one counter to this is saying that the overall effort/skill is higher iwith 56 ppl, based on sheer numbers having to do it, but i dont quantify skill that way, so i guess we can disagree... the other counter i see is taking the logic to soloing, and asking "well then you are saying a necro or w/e should get to kill some solo spawned boss and get same quality gear from that!?!?".. NO, not at all, because that once u get below at least 1 of each class type the level of teamwork is not there.

Anyways, i really hope Vanguard makes it so that when u see phat loot on someone you know they killed something tough, in a grp or raid, and that even the largest guilds find it in their interest to work 6 man dungeons as well as raiding.

As to PvP vs. PvE... only reason worth arguing this is as to if VSOH would have to neglect one for the other... well i see pvp as the same game witha extra dimension to it, so just make it all great!, it CAN be balanced so that classes work properly in pve AND are balanced in pvp, just takes some hard work ^_^

EDIT: i DO think that MORE gear from raids is in order to align with the higher numbers of ppl , but otherwise just make it different gear, same quality, but different designs procs, and slightly tweaked stat focuses etc.

Ah but none of those folk fit into my description of casual nor do you. A casual attitude to a game has nothing to do with the hours you play just your approach. I suspect you belong to that majority of players for whome the game and ingame friends form an important part of your life but not to the extent they define it.

But dont get upset over a bit of fun, I was being contentious to widen the debate. In truth there are as many ways to define such categories as there are players.

This is all good stuff! It really is. So lets see if I can hopefully clear some things up. First of all, I think real life analogies work well here. We all wish we had Bill Gates' money. We don't. We didn't take the same risks that he did. Some could even argue he made way more money than he should. In this vien, all I am saying is there have to be ways to deliniate between casual and hardcore players.

I have said in the past that there has to be more to hardcore gaming than just raid, raid, and more raid. I have an example which should be out this week sometime, still working some issues. In Vanguard, there is so much more to a "raid" than just mustering up and slaying dwagon 0711. Not everyone will have the resources to do this.

I also think what Aredhel said is true. Raiding is not all about phat lewtz. It is about doing things to progress your guild into doing bigger and better things.

Again, grouping can be hardcore. However, in my opinion, there is no way to make it as difficult as a raid. I hope to prove that to you all in the coming weeks.

Always Respectfully,
Melchizedek

Another way to look at PVP is, what would the world be like, if there was no law. People run rampant killing anything and anyone they can because there is no law to stop them from doing it. In the real world people dont go killing everyone and robbing and stealing WHY? because there are laws and consequences to keep them from doing it. On a pvp server, there are no laws to keep them from pillaging and murdering everyone and anyone they can so, they do it. Make laws, make the police / military that protects the innocent that are just wanting a realistic world. If you murder someone in cold blood, make it to where the character that did it can be found guilty and be put to death or tossed in "jail forever" then see how PVP goes. Would be an interesting game that had a CSI unit yes no? Personally, I just stay away from PVP due to the chaos that usually ensues. I see enough chaos on a day to day basis living in the real world. I play games to enjoy it, not get frustrated.

just simply /agree

This is an awesome post. I often have the same battles within myself concerning this topic. Am I casual or Grinder, Do I like PvP or PvE. PvE was all there was for so long that now PvP is the new game for me and Vanguard will definitley be my PvP awakening. I play casual I think, but every moment I get isnt really casual I guess (When there is a game worth playing).

Indeed. In this very thread we have 3 different definitions of casual and hardcore. Thats why the debate rages everytime it comes up, no one has ever stepped up and really defined those categories in a fashion everyone can accept.

hehe good point Pirotess. I'll offer my own definitions, and take them as you will. I will define them TOGETHER because in this context they must be (I feel) defined in conjunction with each other.

Casual vs. Hardcore - In EQ (atleast on my server, Povar) the line seemed to be drawn based on what era of content you focussed on. That's not to say that any guild that focused on expansion X was casual or hardcore, except in relation to each other. The hardcore player/guild strives to be the first one/s to "beat" the new endgame content. I.E. first to kill the Emporer, first into PoTime, etc, etc. Whereas the casual gamer/guild preferred to take things at a slower pace, and was maybe working on the "endgame" content from several expansions ago.

That's just my 2 bits on the definition. The problem I see with this argument is that people are inevitably basing their claims on old EQ and what they saw as far as "raiding gear." Now (again, based on my server), if I saw a fellow paladin who happened to be in Triton, certainly their gear made mine look weak, but they had also acquired it from a raid from the latest expansion, whereas mine was from an expansion or so earlier. In which case it certainly is a warranted "huge jump"... how can my group item from exp. 2 expect to be as good as raid item from exp. 4?

Regardless of that issue, I see NO problem with a raid item being a good bit more powerful than a group gained item. I don't think I could respect a game where a god uses a sword that is comparable to a simple dungeon boss from the same era. The increased difficulty lies in the fact that (assuming the loot dropped is THEIR loot) this being is far more powerful. They SHOULD use, and therefore drop, far more impressive items.

Did I miss the point? What does group vs. raid have to do with what loot drops or hardcore vs. casual have to do with loot drops and reward. Shouldn't it have to do with Difficulty or power of the enemy in wich you are up against. And who cares if you play a game for 12 hours at a time compared to 5 or 6 it all matters in what you do in that time.
I think the missconseption is "self entitlemeant"
Of course there is reward for ""Hard core"" if that even is what you are called if you play long sessions, but just because it took you 10 hours to clear something and then someone else did it in 5 doesnt mean the reward should be different.
Or maybe I missed the point of this thread.
The hard part to fathom is its hard enough to get your loots in a 40 man raiding scheme, I cant imagine being in the rotation of a 54 man. This is going to be interesting to see unfold. Some will be crafter and diplomat but wow.
So what ever you are "Hardcore" "Casual" "Newb with no friends and cant get a group" "Veteran gamer who is narsacistic and crude" or "Veteran who likes to teach others what they have learned"
Just remeber it's only a game, and when it is all said and done did you have fun doing it.