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Originally Posted by Melchizedek
This is a fantastic point and I think you are right in that I could and should have worded this better. Perhaps casual players may play longer hours but never really get into the raiding content where the "phat lewtz" are. This is a personal decision. I do not see an this as unbalanced or rewarding one play style (grouping) versus another play style (raiding).
The person is making a choice, choosing their particular destiny. This happens in real life too. Who honestly should be getting the "phat lewtz" in today's society? Mrs. Johnson, the second grade teacher who works with children who are abused, neglected, hungry and poor or Mr. Johnson who is a stockbroker dealing with the well to do crowd?
We all make choices. We have to live by those choices.
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I don't think pointing out fundamental flaws in rewards in society is a good argument, lol.
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Originally Posted by Melchizedek
This is just my opinion here and it does not represent SGO, VanguardSpheres, or anyone else, just Melchizedek:
I am not sure you can make the level of difficulty for a group match, or come even close, to raid difficulty.
Moving parts: 54 people all contributing. I will admit that if one person blows it in a group, there is a high degree of likelihood the group will wipe. I could also argue that as long as the tank and healer are ok and someone can perform some type of CC, an error by dps (wizzie not controlling his nukes and over aggroing for instance) usually does not result in a complete wipe.
When Kunark came out, 6 of us crawled through Droga on day three or four. It was awesome. We did do something incredibly difficult and we didn't get any phat lewt although we had a ton of money. It would have really been nice to get something for a nine hour crawl, but the fact we moved all around the dungeon and didn't wipe was a testament to our skill, and probably more importantly, dumb luck. Our monk was awesome and I was the chanty. I could go on and on. The point is that grouping does need a serious reward, however, nothing like raid gear.
Let me say this also. End game raids need to be something that is ever evolving. An example would be a guild shwacks epic mob 0021. The last thing we should see is a post on the guild's website that reads, "Welcome to Farm Status !". This may be a pipe dream as hardcore raiders learn an encounter, they will work endlessly, almost like cancer, to make sure everyone has the required loot before moving on. That is just what raiding guilds do.
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You are right in one point, in EQ1 Enchanters were usually a get out of jail free card, lol. But I believe its been stated that Vanguard will not have classes with such extreme CC abilities. And in a tough fight that can go either way, one person in the group screwing up almost certainly wipe them out. Healer looks away, tank dies, they wipe. Tank tried to do damage instead of aggroing, healer and dps die, group wipes. Wizard overnukes, he dies, healer wastes mana trying to save, group dies.
A raid can more easily absorb someone being stupid, 1 loss out of 54 is not really going to matter, unless it is a crucial role.
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Originally Posted by Melchizedek
In the end it comes down to a lifestyle issue. There are farmers who work 18 hour days for 40 years and never really make more than a living while you have people who work in air conditioned offices 40 hours a week pulling in 300k. Could the farmer do the job that the other person is doing? You bet with school, he just never chose to go down that road.
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The problem is, you automatically equate your playstyle with the one that should be paid more
To play Devil's Advocate I could just as easily argue that raids are just zergfests and the "easy" way to get loot, while doing a nasty group encounter requires the real skill, and should be better rewarded.
Now, for a few points to clarify things, lol. I am not suggesting that the average group fight give raid loot, of course not. But that there be group encounters/dungeons designed for such difficulty and reward. Like a group having to fight his way through a zone to kill a nasty mob, not just camping it. Much like a raid only with fewer people. I think that these kind of zones and encounters, particularly endgame, could greatly benefit the game and increase its longevity.
Ok, for the sake of argument lets say there are 5 "tiers" of end game content, each with progressively better content. Your guild is on tier 2, you want to try tier 3. Whats the old solution? Forced raid attendance many nights a week, etc. This is hard on the schedule for many people and causes burnout.
But if you had tier 2 group and tier 2 raid encounters, your guild could be far more flexible, and embrace more people. When people can't play during a raid, they can get a guild group and work on the group encounter. So it lets people gear up through different paths. The heavy raiders can raid every night, while other members can do more group encounters, until everyone is geared up. Then when people are geared, they can head to tier 3 group or raid encounters, whatever they enjoy.
One last point. The biggest problem with insane raid loot is that it not only effects raids, but tends to screw up group content. Difficult and fun encounters become a joke because your tank is raid geared and takes no damage. So encounters get ramped up heavily, and pretty soon you are crap in a group unless you are raid geared, and have no way to access better group encounters without raiding. Raiding becomes NECESSARY to advance.
There is no hard and fast rule that raiding should be the only route to good loot, lol. It just kind of turned out that way in eq1 and other games copied it. Vanguard is supposed to be 3rd gen after all