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Originally Posted by LordDragon13
I think you make the mistake of equating raiders with people who play a lot, and groupers as casuals, who don't play as much. I don't think anyone sane suggests that someone that plays twice as much shouldn't have better stuff, but just that the game shouldn't so heavily reward one chosen play style over another, raiding/grouping for instance.
I knew people in EQ1 who played half as much as I did, but they liked to raid. I spent far more time grouping than they did on raids, but they had far better gear. I think that is the key imbalance.
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This is a fantastic point and I think you are right in that I could and
should have worded this better. Perhaps casual players may play longer hours but never really get into the raiding content where the "phat lewtz" are. This is a personal decision. I do not see an this as unbalanced or rewarding one play style (grouping) versus another play style (raiding).
The person is making a choice, choosing their particular destiny. This happens in real life too. Who honestly should be getting the "phat lewtz" in today's society? Mrs. Johnson, the second grade teacher who works with children who are abused, neglected, hungry and poor or Mr. Johnson who is a stockbroker dealing with the well to do crowd?
We all make choices. We have to live by those choices.
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Originally Posted by LordDragon13
While you make some arguments for raids being more difficult, many would argue the opposite. Unless you are the MT, puller, or some very crucial position, what you do will probably not screw up the raid(unless you go pull a train on the raid or something, lol).
However, in many truly nasty group encounters, every single member has to be at the top of their game, there is no leeway or the group dies.
So why could a game not be designed with group encounters that provide raid level loot, provided that;
1) The group encounter is of comparable difficult
2) It rewards loot at a similar rate per player (So a 4 hour raid for 54 people would reward 9 times the loot of a 4 hour group encounter for 6)
3) The group encounter entails similar risks
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This is just my opinion here and it does not represent SGO, VanguardSpheres, or anyone else, just Melchizedek:
I am not sure you can make the level of difficulty for a group match, or come even close, to raid difficulty.
Moving parts: 54 people all contributing. I will admit that if one person blows it in a group, there is a high degree of likelihood the group will wipe. I could also argue that as long as the tank and healer are ok and someone can perform some type of CC, an error by dps (wizzie not controlling his nukes and over aggroing for instance) usually does not result in a complete wipe.
When Kunark came out, 6 of us crawled through Droga on day three or four. It was awesome. We did do something incredibly difficult and we didn't get any phat lewt although we had a ton of money. It would have really been nice to get something for a nine hour crawl, but the fact we moved all around the dungeon and didn't wipe was a testament to our skill, and probably more importantly, dumb luck. Our monk was awesome and I was the chanty. I could go on and on. The point is that grouping does need a serious reward, however, nothing like raid gear.
Let me say this also. End game raids need to be something that is ever evolving. An example would be a guild shwacks epic mob 0021. The last thing we should see is a post on the guild's website that reads, "Welcome to Farm Status
!". This may be a pipe dream as hardcore raiders learn an encounter, they will work endlessly, almost like cancer, to make sure everyone has the required loot before moving on. That is just what raiding guilds do.
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Originally Posted by LordDragon13
You could even give the raid somewhat more loot per time investment to account for organizational issues.
Giving players that raid vastly better gear(and its always hugely better, not just a decent improvement) just rewards one particular play style while shutting out others. I know lots of people that left EQ1 at the end game because they wanted to improve their characters still, but didn't like raiding. Eventually, I was one of them.
A system like I have described would allow hardcore players of all types to keep some loot parity, and might actually ease up some of the annoyances of heavy raid guilds (heavy mandatory attendance etc) by providing an equally challenging alternative.
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In the end it comes down to a lifestyle issue. There are farmers who work 18 hour days for 40 years and never really make more than a living while you have people who work in air conditioned offices 40 hours a week pulling in 300k. Could the farmer do the job that the other person is doing? You bet with school, he just never chose to go down that road.
I realize people feel passionately about this on both sides of the isle. It is a great topic. Looking forward to hearing from you soon!
Melchizedek